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With the wind?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: With the wind? Reply with quote



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Jose
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote



Quote:
That makes it a magic word?

It's a metaphor.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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Steven P. McNicoll
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

"Jose" <teacherjh (AT) aol (DOT) nojunk.com> wrote in message
news:3daZf.2828$mu2.48 (AT) newssvr24 (DOT) news.prodigy.net...
Quote:

It's a metaphor.


A metaphor that the user needs to explain.
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Jim Macklin
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

No, but it puts them on the "what do you want to do" rather
than the do as I say.



"Steven P. McNicoll" <roncachamp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote in
message
news:wJ8Zf.738$sq5.345 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" <p51mustang[threeX12]@xxxhotmail.calm> wrote
in message
| news:ja8Zf.9077$t22.4360@dukeread08...
| >
| > Because ATC can't question you further, you've stated
that
| > you are UNABLE to do whatever it is that they wanted,
such
| > as a turn into a thunderstorm, or a land and hold short.
No
| > need to argue, just say unable and then tell them what
you
| > can do... saves a lot of time.
| >
|
| Well, just saying UNABLE doesn't magically tell them what
you intend to do.
|
|
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Steven P. McNicoll
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

"Jim Macklin" <p51mustang[threeX12]@xxxhotmail.calm> wrote in message
news:dKcZf.9737$t22.1840@dukeread08...
Quote:

No, but it puts them on the "what do you want to do" rather
than the do as I say.


That appears to be a question. You said that ATC can't question you
further, once you've stated that you are UNABLE to do whatever it is that
they wanted.
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Jose
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

Quote:
A metaphor that the user needs to explain.

"Magic words" (real ones, which btw do not exist) are words which, when
uttered, do things that are beyond the laws of physics. They are
incantations of, well, magic. Simply saying the magic words cause
things to happen which ordinarily could not take place.

"Please" and "thank you" are metaphorically "magic words" because by
using those words, people respond differently than when the same
situation is presented, but without these words. They are (of course)
not =really= magical and do not invoke the other world, but because they
are powerful social lubricants, they have been given this metaphorical
moniker.

"Mayday" and "this is an emergency" are also words which elicit a
powerful response when otherwise such a response would not be
forthcoming. While they do not have the power of actual magical
incantations (and thus cannot put fuel in your tank) they will in
general garner much more assistance than would normally be gotten
without them.

"Unable" is similar in this respect. By conveying that the requested
action is not just inconvenient, but either unsafe or impossible, the
other party is more likely to try to find a workaround, if it is possible.

As with all incantations, metaphorical or otherwise, abuse leads to the
wrath of the Dark Side, which may be vented on those later to come.
Therefore, these magic words should be used with care. But they do have
a powerful effect, even if it is not truely magical.

Controllers can use these words too. "Request straight in to runway 5"
(runway 5 is full of men and machines, seventy parked cars, and a large
tent). "Unable runway 5, I can give you left base to runway 35. Report
three miles."

Generally however it is the pilots who will have the more stringent
operations requirements, and will be more likely to use magic words.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Back to top
Steven P. McNicoll
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

"Jose" <teacherjh (AT) aol (DOT) nojunk.com> wrote in message
news:JLeZf.8941$%m4.3423 (AT) newssvr33 (DOT) news.prodigy.com...
Quote:

"Magic words" (real ones, which btw do not exist) are words which, when
uttered, do things that are beyond the laws of physics. They are
incantations of, well, magic. Simply saying the magic words cause things
to happen which ordinarily could not take place.

"Please" and "thank you" are metaphorically "magic words" because by using
those words, people respond differently than when the same situation is
presented, but without these words. They are (of course) not =really=
magical and do not invoke the other world, but because they are powerful
social lubricants, they have been given this metaphorical moniker.

"Mayday" and "this is an emergency" are also words which elicit a powerful
response when otherwise such a response would not be forthcoming. While
they do not have the power of actual magical incantations (and thus cannot
put fuel in your tank) they will in general garner much more assistance
than would normally be gotten without them.

"Unable" is similar in this respect. By conveying that the requested
action is not just inconvenient, but either unsafe or impossible, the
other party is more likely to try to find a workaround, if it is possible.

As with all incantations, metaphorical or otherwise, abuse leads to the
wrath of the Dark Side, which may be vented on those later to come.
Therefore, these magic words should be used with care. But they do have a
powerful effect, even if it is not truely magical.

Controllers can use these words too. "Request straight in to runway 5"
(runway 5 is full of men and machines, seventy parked cars, and a large
tent). "Unable runway 5, I can give you left base to runway 35. Report
three miles."

Generally however it is the pilots who will have the more stringent
operations requirements, and will be more likely to use magic words.


Only Jim Macklin can explain what he was thinking.
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Jose
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

Quote:
Only Jim Macklin can explain what he was thinking.

I don't think that's true. If he has expressed himself reasonably
(which I think he has), then many people can explain what he was
thinking, or at least what he was attempting to communicate. He is of
course free to explain himself further, but I'll bet I'm fairly close.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Back to top
Steven P. McNicoll
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:01 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

"Jose" <teacherjh (AT) aol (DOT) nojunk.com> wrote in message
news:s8gZf.8955$%m4.6148 (AT) newssvr33 (DOT) news.prodigy.com...
Quote:

I don't think that's true. If he has expressed himself reasonably (which
I think he has), then many people can explain what he was thinking, or at
least what he was attempting to communicate. He is of course free to
explain himself further, but I'll bet I'm fairly close.


What do you think he was attempting to communicate?
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Newps
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

Jose wrote:

Quote:

I don't think that's true. If he has expressed himself reasonably
(which I think he has), then many people can explain what he was
thinking, or at least what he was attempting to communicate. He is of
course free to explain himself further, but I'll bet I'm fairly close.

Everybody with at least three brain cells knew what he was talking about.
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Steven P. McNicoll
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

"Newps" <nowhere (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:P5OdnX1tB-trEqjZnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d (AT) bresnan (DOT) com...
Quote:

Everybody with at least three brain cells knew what he was talking about.


Well, then it shouldn't have been too hard for him to explain. I wonder why
he declined to do that?
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Jose
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, then it shouldn't have been too hard for him to explain. I wonder why
he declined to do that?

He didn't want to waste time?

He hasn't read your incomprehension yet?

He's taking extra time to figure out how to express himself in a manner
fitting his audience?

I'm just guessing of course, and in this case I really =don't= know what
he's thinking.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Back to top
Steven P. McNicoll
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

"Jose" <teacherjh (AT) aol (DOT) nojunk.com> wrote in message
news:UzjZf.23550$NS6.18666 (AT) newssvr30 (DOT) news.prodigy.com...
Quote:

He didn't want to waste time?

He hasn't read your incomprehension yet?

He's taking extra time to figure out how to express himself in a manner
fitting his audience?


No, it's because he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Jim Macklin
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

I think you're just having fun being difficult. ATC will
assign what is easiest for ATC. Any pilot can refuse any
clearance. A simple UNABLE is the end of ATCs option to
continue to issue that clearance. Any PIC should have the
sense to offer an option of what he wants to do, what he is
able to do.

It could be equipment, weather, operating limitations, but
saying UNABLE is clearly understood. No further reason or
explanation is required.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Steven P. McNicoll" <roncachamp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote in
message
news:I0dZf.1341$Es3.260 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" <p51mustang[threeX12]@xxxhotmail.calm> wrote
in message
| news:dKcZf.9737$t22.1840@dukeread08...
| >
| > No, but it puts them on the "what do you want to do"
rather
| > than the do as I say.
| >
|
| That appears to be a question. You said that ATC can't
question you
| further, once you've stated that you are UNABLE to do
whatever it is that
| they wanted.
|
|
Back to top
Jim Macklin
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: With the wind? Reply with quote

Nicely said.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Jose" <teacherjh (AT) aol (DOT) nojunk.com> wrote in message
news:JLeZf.8941$%m4.3423 (AT) newssvr33 (DOT) news.prodigy.com...
|> A metaphor that the user needs to explain.
|
| "Magic words" (real ones, which btw do not exist) are
words which, when
| uttered, do things that are beyond the laws of physics.
They are
| incantations of, well, magic. Simply saying the magic
words cause
| things to happen which ordinarily could not take place.
|
| "Please" and "thank you" are metaphorically "magic words"
because by
| using those words, people respond differently than when
the same
| situation is presented, but without these words. They are
(of course)
| not =really= magical and do not invoke the other world,
but because they
| are powerful social lubricants, they have been given this
metaphorical
| moniker.
|
| "Mayday" and "this is an emergency" are also words which
elicit a
| powerful response when otherwise such a response would not
be
| forthcoming. While they do not have the power of actual
magical
| incantations (and thus cannot put fuel in your tank) they
will in
| general garner much more assistance than would normally be
gotten
| without them.
|
| "Unable" is similar in this respect. By conveying that
the requested
| action is not just inconvenient, but either unsafe or
impossible, the
| other party is more likely to try to find a workaround, if
it is possible.
|
| As with all incantations, metaphorical or otherwise, abuse
leads to the
| wrath of the Dark Side, which may be vented on those later
to come.
| Therefore, these magic words should be used with care.
But they do have
| a powerful effect, even if it is not truely magical.
|
| Controllers can use these words too. "Request straight in
to runway 5"
| (runway 5 is full of men and machines, seventy parked
cars, and a large
| tent). "Unable runway 5, I can give you left base to
runway 35. Report
| three miles."
|
| Generally however it is the pilots who will have the more
stringent
| operations requirements, and will be more likely to use
magic words.
|
| Jose
| --
| Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
Back to top
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