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What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opinion p

 
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Biker Mit
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:08 am    Post subject: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opinion p Reply with quote



Good evening guys and gals.
I am looking in to buying me an ultralight .I was surfing the web ,came
across a few pages which selling used .Saw few that selling a new
kits.So confusing.
I would like to ask y'all for opinions on which would be the most
safest?Which is easier to fly then others?Which has most support from
the manufacturer?
Is there some models i should avoid?I know i am not going to mess with
anything that got two axis control.
My plan is to learn how to fly,then look for a good deal and test fly
it before i buy.

Please post your opinions.
Thanks
Mit



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guynoir
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote



Based on my experience with the Pup, and on what I've read in this
thread about how incredibly dangerous most other ultralights are, I'd
recommend the Preceptor Pup, the Hipps Kitten, Fisher Koala or any of
the other Piper Cub replicas. The Pup is by far the easiest airplane
I've ever flown, even with parts falling off of it and a big hole ripped
in the wing fabric. I've had no ultralight instruction, (except for half
an hour in an Avid Flyer), and wouldn't recommend ultralight instruction
for anyone who can fly a Champ or a Cub. If you're going to fly a Pup,
I mean.

In a traditional pod and boom type ultralight, with the engine behind or
above the cockpit, it's the pilot who arrives first at the scene of an
accident. The engine soon joins him. That might be a worthwhile safety
consideration, except for the gas tank in your lap.

I'd recommend a four stroke half VW type engine for power based solely
on my experience flying a Rotax 582 powered Avid Flyer: I didn't like
it. It didn't sound right, I didn't like the throttle response, it
seemed like it was working way too hard.

This is me coming in for a touch and go on my first flight of my Pup:
http://www.spiretech.com/~guynoir/nieuport/pup101.JPG

Biker Mit wrote:
Quote:
Good evening guys and gals.
I am looking in to buying me an ultralight .I was surfing the web ,came
across a few pages which selling used .Saw few that selling a new
kits.So confusing.
I would like to ask y'all for opinions on which would be the most
safest?Which is easier to fly then others?Which has most support from
the manufacturer?
Is there some models i should avoid?I know i am not going to mess with
anything that got two axis control.
My plan is to learn how to fly,then look for a good deal and test fly
it before i buy.

Please post your opinions.
Thanks
Mit


--
John Kimmel
[email]guyinthetrenchcoat (AT) spiretech (DOT) com[/email]

Naturally, these humorous remarks are all entirely my own opinion, based
solely
on rumor, supposition, innuendo and damned lies, and should be
interpreted in a
spirit of fun. My memory is faulty, also.


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Mark Smith
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

guynoir wrote:
Quote:

Based on my experience with the Pup, and on what I've read in this
thread about how incredibly dangerous most other ultralights are,


Just what gives you this impression ?

I'd
Quote:
recommend the Preceptor Pup, the Hipps Kitten, Fisher Koala or any of
the other Piper Cub replicas. The Pup is by far the easiest airplane
I've ever flown,


I bet you have never flown many ultralights then.

even with parts falling off of it and a big hole ripped
Quote:
in the wing fabric.


I just gotta ask, if they are so safe, how the heck did you destroy so
much of the plane ? And on further thought, why were you flying a plane
in that condition ?

I've had no ultralight instruction,


Ah, I thought so. You are talking about stuff you have never experienced
at all. Kinda like the folks at the FnAA who wrote sprot pile it !

(except for half
Quote:
an hour in an Avid Flyer),


And with all this knowledge you think you have, you really think any
Avid model is an ultralight ? Geesh,,,,,,,,

and wouldn't recommend ultralight instruction
Quote:
for anyone who can fly a Champ or a Cub. If you're going to fly a Pup,
I mean.


But surely you would recommened transition training for a GA pilot
trying a real life ultralight would you not ?


Quote:

In a traditional pod and boom type ultralight, with the engine behind or
above the cockpit, it's the pilot who arrives first at the scene of an
accident. The engine soon joins him.

I's bet at 30 mph, which is ultralight landing speeds, even my two
place, that the pilot, the plane and the engine arrive just about the
same time. And your inference the engine chases the pilot on down to the
ground is ludicrous. I've never seen an engine dislocated from the
mounts in my twenty some years of ul building.

The engine soon joins him. That might be a worthwhile safety
consideration, except for the gas tank in your lap.


I'd bet more Avids and Pup types have the tank leak after a crash, and
"in your lap" ?? many have the tank behind the dash.


Quote:

I'd recommend a four stroke half VW type engine for power based solely
on my experience flying a Rotax 582 powered Avid Flyer: I didn't like
it. It didn't sound right, I didn't like the throttle response, it
seemed like it was working way too hard.

The 582 kicks my trainer pretty good, and sounds pretty good too. Maybe
you had a bad one, or didn't know much about them. BTW, on the yahoo
engine group, there are questions about the VW ripoffs having oil
problems. Maybe with your knowledge and experience, you should drop by
and answer all their questions.


Quote:

This is me coming in for a touch and go on my first flight of my Pup:
http://www.spiretech.com/~guynoir/nieuport/pup101.JPG

It does look like a nice plane. Can you remove the windshield to get
some wind in your face ?

--
Mark Smith
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620
1-812-838-6351
http://www.trikite.com
mailto:mark (AT) trikite (DOT) com

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rambo
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote


Have a look at the Drifter

http://www.leza-aircam.com/

I think it's a great plane to learn on.

It's an open cockpit taildragger tandem pusher but it's easy and fun to
fly. Uses Rotax 503, 582 or 912.

Also Jabiru

http://www.jabiru.net.au/

These are great aircraft to learn on too. Maybe not as much fun as a
Drifter, but they do have many models.

It depends also very much on where you are located....weather,
maintenance facilities, hangarage and how much you want to spend etc


--
rambo
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

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Gregg
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

I strongly support Rambo's recommendations.
After 35 years flying GA (off and on), I made the switch to a Drifter -
with a Rotax 912 4-stroke (don't trust 2-strokes. Great for mowing the
lawn and powering chain saws, but not when my life is depending on it)

The Drifter is what I had been missing all those years. Flying with the
breeze in your face is real flying. Note I said breeze, not prop-wash.
With the fan at the back, your view and flying pleasure is unimpeded.

If I go nose first into something solid, fast enough to get the 912 to
break loose, I'll already be well past worrying what the engine does.
The mounts and the braced structure of my Fisher Mk 1 Drifter variant
are incredibly strong.

How's this for a (true) demonstration of real flying. Trim the Drifter
for hands-off straight and level at 55 kts. Hold both arms out to the
sides, in the breeze, hands stretched out, palms down. Now rotate thumbs
upward by twisting wrists. Plane noses up. Rotate thumbs down, plane
noses down. Try that in anything with the prop in front ;-)

Gregg
rambo wrote:
Quote:
Have a look at the Drifter

http://www.leza-aircam.com/

I think it's a great plane to learn on.

It's an open cockpit taildragger tandem pusher but it's easy and fun to
fly. Uses Rotax 503, 582 or 912.

Also Jabiru

http://www.jabiru.net.au/

These are great aircraft to learn on too. Maybe not as much fun as a
Drifter, but they do have many models.

It depends also very much on where you are located....weather,
maintenance facilities, hangarage and how much you want to spend etc


--
rambo
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -


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tom pettit
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

I fly a Savannah kit plane that I frequently fly doors off. It isn't an
ultra light, with a gross weight of 1100 pounds, and it is a tractor, but
with doors off, I can steer it with my hands, too. I do like the windshield
to keep the bugs off.
tom

"Gregg" <gregg (AT) yourknickersgreggf (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:


How's this for a (true) demonstration of real flying. Trim the Drifter for
hands-off straight and level at 55 kts. Hold both arms out to the sides,
in the breeze, hands stretched out, palms down. Now rotate thumbs upward
by twisting wrists. Plane noses up. Rotate thumbs down, plane noses down.
Try that in anything with the prop in front ;-)




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guynoir
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

Mit, here are a couple more things I like about my Pup.

First of all, it looks like a real airplane instead of a collection of
wire, string and bedsheets held together with pop rivets and certified
True Value Hardware. It's also built like a real airplane, with welded
4130 steel tube fuselage and built up wood (or aluminum) wings. Mine is
covered with a certified, non-flammable fabric covering system. It
sounds like a real airplane too, with a slow revving four stroke engine.
I guess the fact that it also flies like a real airplane is what makes
it so easy to transition to from real airplanes like Cubs, Champs,
BC-12's and spam cans.

If you’re still shopping around for a flight instructor...

To me it’s just common sense, but I've never had a flight instructor who
wasn't formally trained, tested, certified, licensed and audited by God
every 24 months to ensure that he was competent and maintaining
proficiency as a flight instructor. It’s not as if my life didn’t
depend on his ability to teach me to fly. Keep in mind that you, your
wife, your mother-in-law and I are all qualified to be "Ultralight
Flight Instructors" under the current rules. You know your wife (or
think you do), your mother-in-law and yourself, but you don’t know squat
about me. Or anyone else who claims to be an “ultralight flight
instructor”. Fortunately the new Sport Pilot rules require that all
“ultralight flight instructors” become real Certified Flight Instructors
by January 31, 2008. For some, this will be like becoming an adult and
learning how to like broccoli. For others, it will be more like taking
all your toys and going home. And whining about it. A lot. For the
latter we have usenet.


--
John Kimmel
[email]guyinthetrenchcoat (AT) spiretech (DOT) com[/email]

Naturally, these humorous remarks are all entirely my own opinion, based
solely
on rumor, supposition, innuendo and damned lies, and should be
interpreted in a
spirit of fun. My memory is faulty, also.

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Flip
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

Mark Smith wrote:
Quote:
guynoir wrote:

Based on my experience with the Pup, and on what I've read in this
thread about how incredibly dangerous most other ultralights are,



Just what gives you this impression ?

I'd

recommend the Preceptor Pup, the Hipps Kitten, Fisher Koala or any of
the other Piper Cub replicas. The Pup is by far the easiest airplane
I've ever flown,



I bet you have never flown many ultralights then.

even with parts falling off of it and a big hole ripped

in the wing fabric.



I just gotta ask, if they are so safe, how the heck did you destroy so
much of the plane ? And on further thought, why were you flying a plane
in that condition ?

I've had no ultralight instruction,


Ah, I thought so. You are talking about stuff you have never experienced
at all. Kinda like the folks at the FnAA who wrote sprot pile it !

(except for half

an hour in an Avid Flyer),



And with all this knowledge you think you have, you really think any
Avid model is an ultralight ? Geesh,,,,,,,,

and wouldn't recommend ultralight instruction

for anyone who can fly a Champ or a Cub. If you're going to fly a Pup,
I mean.



But surely you would recommened transition training for a GA pilot
trying a real life ultralight would you not ?



In a traditional pod and boom type ultralight, with the engine behind or
above the cockpit, it's the pilot who arrives first at the scene of an
accident. The engine soon joins him.


I's bet at 30 mph, which is ultralight landing speeds, even my two
place, that the pilot, the plane and the engine arrive just about the
same time. And your inference the engine chases the pilot on down to the
ground is ludicrous. I've never seen an engine dislocated from the
mounts in my twenty some years of ul building.

The engine soon joins him. That might be a worthwhile safety
consideration, except for the gas tank in your lap.


I'd bet more Avids and Pup types have the tank leak after a crash, and
"in your lap" ?? many have the tank behind the dash.



I'd recommend a four stroke half VW type engine for power based solely
on my experience flying a Rotax 582 powered Avid Flyer: I didn't like
it. It didn't sound right, I didn't like the throttle response, it
seemed like it was working way too hard.


The 582 kicks my trainer pretty good, and sounds pretty good too. Maybe
you had a bad one, or didn't know much about them. BTW, on the yahoo
engine group, there are questions about the VW ripoffs having oil
problems. Maybe with your knowledge and experience, you should drop by
and answer all their questions.



This is me coming in for a touch and go on my first flight of my Pup:
http://www.spiretech.com/~guynoir/nieuport/pup101.JPG


It does look like a nice plane. Can you remove the windshield to get
some wind in your face ?



That was an excellent reply....

Frank Salmon

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Gregg
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

I assume your chosen French sounding nickname is selected in order to
give added credibility to your arseholiness.

What a wanker!

guynoir wrote:
Quote:
Mit, here are a couple more things I like about my Pup.

First of all, it looks like a real airplane instead of a collection of
wire, string and bedsheets held together with pop rivets and certified
True Value Hardware. It's also built like a real airplane, with welded
4130 steel tube fuselage and built up wood (or aluminum) wings. Mine is
covered with a certified, non-flammable fabric covering system. It
sounds like a real airplane too, with a slow revving four stroke engine.
I guess the fact that it also flies like a real airplane is what makes
it so easy to transition to from real airplanes like Cubs, Champs,
BC-12's and spam cans.

If you’re still shopping around for a flight instructor...

To me it’s just common sense, but I've never had a flight instructor who
wasn't formally trained, tested, certified, licensed and audited by God
every 24 months to ensure that he was competent and maintaining
proficiency as a flight instructor. It’s not as if my life didn’t
depend on his ability to teach me to fly. Keep in mind that you, your
wife, your mother-in-law and I are all qualified to be "Ultralight
Flight Instructors" under the current rules. You know your wife (or
think you do), your mother-in-law and yourself, but you don’t know squat
about me. Or anyone else who claims to be an “ultralight flight
instructor”. Fortunately the new Sport Pilot rules require that all
“ultralight flight instructors” become real Certified Flight Instructors
by January 31, 2008. For some, this will be like becoming an adult and
learning how to like broccoli. For others, it will be more like taking
all your toys and going home. And whining about it. A lot. For the
latter we have usenet.



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Darrel Toepfer
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

guynoir wrote:

Quote:
To me it’s just common sense, but I've never had a flight instructor who
wasn't formally trained, tested, certified, licensed and audited by God
every 24 months to ensure that he was competent and maintaining
proficiency as a flight instructor.

God does it on a daily basis...

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Mark Smith
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

guynoir wrote:
Quote:

Mit, here are a couple more things I like about my Pup.

First of all, it looks like a real airplane


Do you mean a 'real airplane' like the Wrights flew ?

Or one like you like ?

instead of a collection of
Quote:
wire, string and bedsheets held together with pop rivets and certified
True Value Hardware.


I'd bett the fasteners in the average quicksilver kit have a much higher
ratio of AN approval than the Pup, or the whatever look-a-like Pup you
want to discuss.

I'd also bet more of the materials are aircraft grade than what the pup
and pup look-a-likes use too.

It's also built like a real airplane, with welded
Quote:
4130 steel tube fuselage


So the RV series are not real airplanes ? And do you put the aluminum
ones a stepo below ones with welded fuses ?

and built up wood

" Go to the local lumberyard and purchase a nice straight 2 by 6 by 16
relatively free of knots " Isn't this how the Pup type plane plans
start out,,,,,,,,I bet Lowes sells airplane kits in you world !

(or aluminum) wings. Mine is
Quote:
covered with a certified, non-flammable fabric covering system. It
sounds like a real airplane too, with a slow revving four stroke engine.


I bet it flies like a slug too.

But really sounds great !!

Good thing for long runways sos youse guys can get airborne,,,,,,,,,,,

BTW, did you solve the oil pressure problem for the other group. You
seemed to be a know it all,,,,,,,,

Quote:
I guess the fact that it also flies like a real airplane


And just how do real airplanes fly, warping the wings, weight shift,
laying face down,
maybe try face up even !

is what makes
Quote:
it so easy to transition to from real airplanes like Cubs, Champs,
BC-12's and spam cans.

Spam cans, I'd sooner the typical MX driver fly a taildragger Pup than
the typical spam can driver. Without some transition training, you'll be
recovering wings before you know it !

Quote:

If you’re still shopping around for a flight instructor...

To me it’s just common sense, but I've never had a flight instructor who
wasn't formally trained, tested, certified, licensed and audited by God
every 24 months to ensure that he was competent and maintaining
proficiency as a flight instructor. It’s not as if my life didn’t
depend on his ability to teach me to fly. Keep in mind that you, your
wife, your mother-in-law and I are all qualified to be "Ultralight
Flight Instructors" under the current rules. You know your wife (or
think you do), your mother-in-law and yourself, but you don’t know squat
about me. Or anyone else who claims to be an “ultralight flight
instructor”.


So you slam all the VFI's out here who have taught hundreds of folks to
fly. I've soloed over ten this year. What did the BFI group do to you to
make you so jealous of us ?


Fortunately the new Sport Pilot rules require that all
Quote:
“ultralight flight instructors” become real Certified Flight Instructors
by January 31, 2008. For some, this will be like becoming an adult and
learning how to like broccoli. For others, it will be more like taking
all your toys and going home. And whining about it. A lot. For the
latter we have usenet.

If you think your Pup is an ultralight, you may want to weigh it
tonight.

They seldom make weight with a 447 let alone the anchor you like the
sound of.

But what the heck, you seem to know it all,,,,,,,,,

I guess we should just follow you down the Rec pilot route, oops, that
was some years ago, down the sport pilot route.

"Another rule written by those who don't fly much about planes they
don't fly at all "
Quote:

--
John Kimmel
[email]guyinthetrenchcoat (AT) spiretech (DOT) com[/email]

Naturally, these humorous remarks are all entirely my own opinion, based
solely
on rumor, supposition, innuendo and damned lies, and should be
interpreted in a
spirit of fun. My memory is faulty, also.

You have a nice day too,,,,,,,,,,,

--
Mark Smith
Tri-State Kite Sales
1121 N Locust St
Mt Vernon, IN 47620
1-812-838-6351
http://www.trikite.com
mailto:mark (AT) trikite (DOT) com

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Richard Carlisle
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: What's the best ultralight plane for beginner.Your opini Reply with quote

You need to look at the differnt types of plane objectively and decide which
fits you style of flying. I owned a Hipps Reliant and loved it. I also
owned an MX and loved it. They are two different planes. The MX is open
air flying, which is probably the most fun you'll ever have flying. The
Hipps, Pup stype plane is like single place Piper Cub, which is a little
faster and more comfortable on long cross county flights..

As far as safety, either one will hit the ground just as hard as the other,
having the motor in front or behind doesn't magically bend the laws of
gravity. If you hit the ground in an MX hard enough to send the engine
flying forward, you wouldn't fare any better in a tractor config plane given
the same impact. You could also argue that with the MX, there is less
"structure" to collapse around you on impact. The MX will also land slower.
The MX stall speed is slower than the Reliant. Less speed = less damage on
impact. While speed doubles, the energy released on impact goes up four
fold. Just a small decrease in speed can make big difference on
survivability in a crash. That's why it's so important in an emergency to
fly the plane all the way down and get it as slow as possible before impact.
Weight also has alot to do with survivability. A lighter plane will have
less kinetic energy to dissipate on impact. It also usually goes hand in
hand that a lighter plane will have a slower stall speed...But there's more
to determining stall speed than weight, so That's not always true.

If you have no experience right now, an MX with tri-gear...or any tri-gear
plane will be easier than a taildragger. I prefer taildraggers, but then
that's all I've flown for the past 20 years. A tri-gear plane feels awkward
to me on the ground.

Support will be better from any company that manufactures a full kit. If I
were in the market for a real kit and not just a set of plans a few factory
made parts, I'd consider Rans, CGS Hawk and Challenger for enclosed planes.
For open air types I'd consider Quicksilver or for something with more of a
sportscar feel, the Phantom. I'm partial to the Phantom, which is now
available in an enclosed version. I used to do sportsman class aerobatics
in my Rotax 503 powered Phantom. If the Quicks are more your style,
consider buying one from Mark Smith. He's been building them forever and
has made some real nice improvements over the factory models.

Any of the cub look-a-likes will be more of a building project that any of
the planes I mentioned above. The construction techniques are exactly like
a real cub. Wings are built up and stits covered and fuselages are welded
4130 tube. When you're done you'll have a nice plane, but plan on spending
some time on the project. You can avoid that by buying prebuilt wings and
fuselage, but then you need to plan on spending some money.

You need to ask youself what style of flying you want to do. Once you
figure that out, start looking at those types of planes. Then you need to
decide if you want to build or fly. If you like building, buy a set of
plans and go to it. If you would rather fly, look at the quick build kits.

Ross


"Biker Mit" <biker_mit (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:
Good evening guys and gals.
I am looking in to buying me an ultralight .I was surfing the web ,came
across a few pages which selling used .Saw few that selling a new
kits.So confusing.
I would like to ask y'all for opinions on which would be the most
safest?Which is easier to fly then others?Which has most support from
the manufacturer?
Is there some models i should avoid?I know i am not going to mess with
anything that got two axis control.
My plan is to learn how to fly,then look for a good deal and test fly
it before i buy.

Please post your opinions.
Thanks
Mit




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