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Travis Marlatte
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Unclear Clearance |
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This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...
I flew PWK (just north of O'Hare) to D95 (Lapeer just east of Flint,
Michigan). Went VFR across the lake but then encountered reduced vis and
lowering ceilings so I air-filed with Lansing FS over Pullman VOR. After
reading off the clearance request, Lansing said, "IFR on file. Do you need a
frequency?" Since they offered, I said yes. They said something like, "try
133.65."
I wasn't sure who was going to be on the other end so I listened for about
30 seconds before I heard someone refer to Chicago Center.
-> Me: Chicago Center, Lake 3049P is VFR over Pullman VOR and just filed
with Lansing. Destination D95. Can we pick up our clearance when you get a
chance?
-> Chicago Center: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Squawk 3143 and I'll look it
up.
15 seconds later.
-> CC: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Radar Contact and I've got your clearance
when you're ready.
-> Me: Lake 94P. Ready to copy.
-> CC: Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR then D95. Climb
maintain 5000.
For starters, that even caught me off guard since the squawk and frequency
were missing. It took me several brain ticks to realize that I was already
squawking and talking. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, she had given me the
squawk before having the clearance in hand. I half presumed that the squawk
would change. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I had told her our destination
so maybe she picked a squawk that would work. Tick. Tick. Maybe I should
stop worrying about how to do her job. Tick. Tick. But what if she
misunderstood. Tick. Tick. What if I misunderstood. Tick Tick.
After the read back of the somewhat abbreviated clearance.
-> CC: Lake 94P. Read back correct.Contact Grand Rapids approach on 128.4.
As I was switching to Grand Rapids, it occured to me that I didn't know if I
was cleared to proceed and to climb. It seemed odd to hand me off to Grand
Rapids for a release when it would have been just seconds from getting the
clearance from Chicago Center. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I was pretty
sure that when I have air-filed in the past that the readback confirmation
was followed with instructions. Tick. Tick. OK. Chicago Center was just
acting as the delivery agent and Grand Rapids would handle the release.
Tick. Tick. At least they know who I am. I've got a squawk. And I'm in radar
contact.
I had been circling in VFR conditions and remained that way until I got a
hold of Grand Rapids. I knew that Grand Rapids would just be getting the
flight strip so, when I contacted them, I said something like:
-> Me: Grand Rapids Approach, Lake 3094P just got our clearance from Chicago
Center. We're 2500 in VFR near Pullman VOR. Destination D95.
-> Grand Rapids: Lake 3094P, Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids altimeter 29.98.
Huh? That made it seem as if Grand Rapids thought that I was already cleared
on course and they were just taking the handoff. But, I wasn't sure, so I
asked.
-> Me: Grand Rapids. Lake 94P. I wasn't sure if Chicago Center cleared me on
course or not. Am I cleared on course and up to 5000?
-> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. If you need a heading, fly heading 060. And, huh,
yea, your cleared up to 5000. Let me know when you're picking up Flint VOR
and can proceed direct.
-> Me: We're GPS. Direct Flint. Climb Maintain 5000. Lake 94P
-> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. Roger.
So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?
Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids. Even if they
did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand Rapids
know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the (presumably)
computerized flight strips?
Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call? After they gave me the
altimeter setting, was I too anxious? Do you think they would have come back
with instructions? Do you still call it a release? I have always thought of
it as a release from the airport. Is it really a release into the IFR system
whether from the surface or not?
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK |
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Roy Smith
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
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"Travis Marlatte" <TMarlatteNO (AT) SPAMTravisCons (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?
|
Yup.
| Quote: | Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids.
|
Nope. You only get released when you're on the ground. If you're in the
air, you've already escaped, so there's nothing to release :-)
As soon as the guy said, "Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR
then D95. Climb maintain 5000.", you should have headed direct to Flint and
started climbing. |
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
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Travis Marlatte wrote:
| Quote: | -> CC: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Radar Contact and I've got your clearance
when you're ready.
-> Me: Lake 94P. Ready to copy.
-> CC: Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR then D95. Climb
maintain 5000.
So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?
|
They asked if you were ready to copy, you said yes. Then they read you
your clearance. Pretty cut and dried.
| Quote: | Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids.
|
ATC never issues a clearance and then has you get a release from AFSS.
That would make no sense as the release can only come from the guy who
just read you your clearance.
Even if they
| Quote: | did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand Rapids
know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the (presumably)
computerized flight strips?
Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call?
|
Yes. Cleared to...is as clear as it gets.
After they gave me the
| Quote: | altimeter setting, was I too anxious? Do you think they would have come back
with instructions? Do you still call it a release? I have always thought of
it as a release from the airport. Is it really a release into the IFR system
whether from the surface or not?
|
You are making this way too hard. You received a clearance from a
controller. That's as good as it gets. |
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Peter R.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
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On 4/9/2007 10:48:08 PM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:
| Quote: | -> Chicago Center: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Squawk 3143 and I'll look
it up.
|
The other two posters already addressed your clearance limit and altitude,
but regarding the above, let me just add that I will often pick up a
pre-filed IFR clearance in the air when departing a non-towered airport if
the weather is good VFR at both the departing airport and first 20 miles or
so en route.
In almost all cases, the controller will immediately respond to my request
with a squawk code before finding my clearance, as you experienced. This
tactic is pretty common, at least in the Northeast US and I presume that the
controller is doing this to immediately identify me on his/her scope.
This experience of yours is the classic example of how often theory (CRAFT in
that neat order) will differ from reality and the only way to become
comfortable with these numerous deviations from theory is to fly IFR often.
--
Peter |
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John T
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
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"Travis Marlatte" <TMarlatteNO (AT) SPAMTravisCons (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:aUCSh.1959$w41.643 (AT) newssvr19 (DOT) news.prodigy.net
| Quote: |
This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio
traffic but it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...
|
I think it sounds like you haven't air-filed very many IFR plans and/or
haven't departed VFR and activated IFR in the air much. :)
The controller's response was not at all unusual from my experience of, for
example, departing VFR and activating in the air (like Peter R described).
In fact, I needed to do that twice just last week where VMC prevailed at my
departure points, but I couldn't raise ATC from the ground. Rather than dig
out the cell phone and get a clearance void time via landline, I simply
departed VFR and activated in the air. Both conversations were very much
like you described:
"N123, squawk 4321."
"N123, Cleared to [destination] as filed, climb and maintain [5000]."
As Newps described, once I heard "cleared to" and "as filed," I immediately
proceeded on course and continued climbing to altitude.
When activating in the air, CRAFT doesn't seem to apply. It's more "T,CRA."
(Let me know if you think of a nifty mnemonic.) The controllers seem to want
to identify you on radar while finding your P-strip or preparing to enter
your plan.
--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________ |
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Travis Marlatte
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
|
|
"Newps" <nowhere (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:ArydnWC4vcMaYYfbnZ2dnUVZ_sCinZ2d (AT) bresnan (DOT) com...
| Quote: |
They asked if you were ready to copy, you said yes. Then they read you
your clearance. Pretty cut and dried.
|
I'll take your word for it but it seems cut and dried only for a clearance
delivery. It was a separate step of activation that I was missing.
| Quote: |
Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids.
ATC never issues a clearance and then has you get a release from AFSS.
|
I'll agree with that. "Grand Rapids" referred to Grand Rapids Approach who
handled me until handoff to Lansing Approach then to Flint Approach.
| Quote: | That would make no sense as the release can only come from the guy who
just read you your clearance.
|
That seems like a strong statement that only applies in a small number of
scenarios. My experience is that I very rarely get a release from the guy
who just read me my clearance.
| Quote: |
Even if they
did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand
Rapids know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the
(presumably) computerized flight strips?
Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call?
Yes. Cleared to...is as clear as it gets.
|
Unless it's in the wrong context. Every time I get a clearance from
Clearance Delivery on the ground I get a "Cleared to ..." but that doesn't
consitute a release.
| Quote: |
You are making this way too hard. You received a clearance from a
controller. That's as good as it gets.
|
Everyone seems to agree so I'll take this lesson and move on.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK |
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Andrew Sarangan
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
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I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.
On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte" <TMarlatt...@SPAMTravisCons.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...
I flew PWK (just north of O'Hare) to D95 (Lapeer just east of Flint,
Michigan). Went VFR across the lake but then encountered reduced vis and
lowering ceilings so I air-filed with Lansing FS over Pullman VOR. After
reading off the clearance request, Lansing said, "IFR on file. Do you need a
frequency?" Since they offered, I said yes. They said something like, "try
133.65."
I wasn't sure who was going to be on the other end so I listened for about
30 seconds before I heard someone refer to Chicago Center.
-> Me: Chicago Center, Lake 3049P is VFR over Pullman VOR and just filed
with Lansing. Destination D95. Can we pick up our clearance when you get a
chance?
-> Chicago Center: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Squawk 3143 and I'll look it
up.
15 seconds later.
-> CC: Lake 3094P. Chicago Center. Radar Contact and I've got your clearance
when you're ready.
-> Me: Lake 94P. Ready to copy.
-> CC: Lake 3094P is cleared direct to the Flint VOR then D95. Climb
maintain 5000.
For starters, that even caught me off guard since the squawk and frequency
were missing. It took me several brain ticks to realize that I was already
squawking and talking. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, she had given me the
squawk before having the clearance in hand. I half presumed that the squawk
would change. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I had told her our destination
so maybe she picked a squawk that would work. Tick. Tick. Maybe I should
stop worrying about how to do her job. Tick. Tick. But what if she
misunderstood. Tick. Tick. What if I misunderstood. Tick Tick.
After the read back of the somewhat abbreviated clearance.
-> CC: Lake 94P. Read back correct.Contact Grand Rapids approach on 128.4.
As I was switching to Grand Rapids, it occured to me that I didn't know if I
was cleared to proceed and to climb. It seemed odd to hand me off to Grand
Rapids for a release when it would have been just seconds from getting the
clearance from Chicago Center. Tick. Tick. On the other hand, I was pretty
sure that when I have air-filed in the past that the readback confirmation
was followed with instructions. Tick. Tick. OK. Chicago Center was just
acting as the delivery agent and Grand Rapids would handle the release.
Tick. Tick. At least they know who I am. I've got a squawk. And I'm in radar
contact.
I had been circling in VFR conditions and remained that way until I got a
hold of Grand Rapids. I knew that Grand Rapids would just be getting the
flight strip so, when I contacted them, I said something like:
-> Me: Grand Rapids Approach, Lake 3094P just got our clearance from Chicago
Center. We're 2500 in VFR near Pullman VOR. Destination D95.
-> Grand Rapids: Lake 3094P, Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids altimeter 29.98.
Huh? That made it seem as if Grand Rapids thought that I was already cleared
on course and they were just taking the handoff. But, I wasn't sure, so I
asked.
-> Me: Grand Rapids. Lake 94P. I wasn't sure if Chicago Center cleared me on
course or not. Am I cleared on course and up to 5000?
-> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. If you need a heading, fly heading 060. And, huh,
yea, your cleared up to 5000. Let me know when you're picking up Flint VOR
and can proceed direct.
-> Me: We're GPS. Direct Flint. Climb Maintain 5000. Lake 94P
-> Grand Rapids: Lake 94P. Roger.
So. Was Chicago's initial read of my clearance also my clearance to proceed?
Or, did they expect me to get a "release" from Grand Rapids. Even if they
did expect me to get the "release" from Grand Rapids, how would Grand Rapids
know that? Is there an originating entity indicated in the (presumably)
computerized flight strips?
Did I confuse Grand Rapids in my initial call? After they gave me the
altimeter setting, was I too anxious? Do you think they would have come back
with instructions? Do you still call it a release? I have always thought of
it as a release from the airport. Is it really a release into the IFR system
whether from the surface or not?
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK |
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Travis Marlatte
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
|
|
"Andrew Sarangan" <asarangan (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1176259863.655262.5040 (AT) y80g2000hsf (DOT) googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.
|
I dunno.
I guess I am more used to the three-step process of filing the clearance,
receiving the clearance, and finally being released into the system. On the
ground, that always happens.
Someone suggested that I don't air-file very often. That's probably true in
the big scheme of things but I have done it a good number of times. I don't
ever remember questioning whether I was really cleared or not before so
maybe I'm just having a brain fade.
I think I was expecting something like, "readback correct. Proceed on
course. Climb maintain 5000."
Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
the controller a chance to manage their airspace. In my mind, I'm leaving
room for something different. Such as, "readback correct. Fly heading 030
for traffic. Climb maintain 3000. I'll have higher for you in a few miles."
OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
problem!" so I guess it's just me.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK |
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Ron Rosenfeld
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
|
|
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 06:11:19 GMT, "Travis Marlatte"
<TMarlatteNO (AT) SPAMTravisCons (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | I guess I am more used to the three-step process of filing the clearance,
receiving the clearance, and finally being released into the system. On the
ground, that always happens.
|
It rarely happens to me except at tower controlled airfields. Receiving a
clearance at my home base, I will be issued a Void Time, but the clearance
is active immediately, unless otherwise explicitly stated.
At a tower controlled airfield, I will receive the clearance during taxi or
runup. But then have to await takeoff clearance.
| Quote: |
Someone suggested that I don't air-file very often. That's probably true in
the big scheme of things but I have done it a good number of times. I don't
ever remember questioning whether I was really cleared or not before so
maybe I'm just having a brain fade.
I think I was expecting something like, "readback correct. Proceed on
course. Climb maintain 5000."
Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
the controller a chance to manage their airspace. In my mind, I'm leaving
room for something different. Such as, "readback correct. Fly heading 030
for traffic. Climb maintain 3000. I'll have higher for you in a few miles."
|
If ATC required that you delay executing your clearance, they would most
likely have delayed issuing the clearance, in your situation.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
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Andrew Sarangan
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
|
|
When ATC says you are "cleared" that is exactly what that means. You
are ok to proceed from that instant. The exceptions are when they add
"hold for release". At tower controlled airports, you are actually on
hold for release because you need a separate clearance for takeoff, at
which point you are considered to be released into the system.
On Apr 11, 2:11 am, "Travis Marlatte" <TMarlatt...@SPAMTravisCons.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Andrew Sarangan" <asaran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176259863.655262.5040 (AT) y80g2000hsf (DOT) googlegroups.com...
I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.
I dunno.
I guess I am more used to the three-step process of filing the clearance,
receiving the clearance, and finally being released into the system. On the
ground, that always happens.
Someone suggested that I don't air-file very often. That's probably true in
the big scheme of things but I have done it a good number of times. I don't
ever remember questioning whether I was really cleared or not before so
maybe I'm just having a brain fade.
I think I was expecting something like, "readback correct. Proceed on
course. Climb maintain 5000."
Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
the controller a chance to manage their airspace. In my mind, I'm leaving
room for something different. Such as, "readback correct. Fly heading 030
for traffic. Climb maintain 3000. I'll have higher for you in a few miles."
OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
problem!" so I guess it's just me.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK |
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Peter R.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
|
|
On 4/11/2007 2:11:19 AM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:
| Quote: | OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
problem!" so I guess it's just me.
|
Travis, you were wise to ask about this scenario here. Do not take the few
"duh!" replies personally. This is a discussion group that serves more than
just the contributors. There were most likely many more in lurk mode who
benefited from your legitimate question and the responses it received.
--
Peter |
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
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|
On 04/11/07 07:22, Peter R. wrote:
| Quote: | On 4/11/2007 2:11:19 AM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:
OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
problem!" so I guess it's just me.
Travis, you were wise to ask about this scenario here. Do not take the few
"duh!" replies personally. This is a discussion group that serves more than
just the contributors. There were most likely many more in lurk mode who
benefited from your legitimate question and the responses it received.
|
I'll second that! - Travis: Thanks for bringing this up.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA |
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
|
|
Travis Marlatte wrote:
| Quote: | "Newps" <nowhere (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:ArydnWC4vcMaYYfbnZ2dnUVZ_sCinZ2d (AT) bresnan (DOT) com...
They asked if you were ready to copy, you said yes. Then they read you
your clearance. Pretty cut and dried.
I'll take your word for it but it seems cut and dried only for a clearance
delivery. It was a separate step of activation that I was missing.
|
There's nothing to miss, you're talking to the guy who's responsible for
the airspace.
| Quote: | That would make no sense as the release can only come from the guy who
just read you your clearance.
That seems like a strong statement that only applies in a small number of
scenarios. My experience is that I very rarely get a release from the guy
who just read me my clearance.
|
When you are flying along and a controller reads you a clearance that is
always the case.
| Quote: | Yes. Cleared to...is as clear as it gets.
Unless it's in the wrong context. Every time I get a clearance from
Clearance Delivery on the ground I get a "Cleared to ..." but that doesn't
consitute a release.
|
You have to separate in the air from on the ground, totally different
situations. |
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Newps
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
|
|
Andrew Sarangan wrote:
| Quote: | I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.
|
With the exception being the controller gave him a code and then said he
was going to look for his clearance. If he finds one it will have a
different code on the strip so either the pilot will have to change
codes or the controller will have to make an ammendment on the flight
plan. That's working too hard. |
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Unclear Clearance |
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|
Travis Marlatte wrote:
| Quote: |
Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
the controller a chance to manage their airspace.
|
The airspace management happened before he read you the clearance.
Besides you're flying at 120 knots, it's hard for you to cause problems. |
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