AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message scott moore Guest Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S Mode-S/TIS transponders cost more, turns out, they cost substantially more to certify for IFR as well. I'm beginning to come around to the viewpoint of those here who say that any modernization that comes from the FAA will usually be a costly waste of time. The FAA is abandoning TIS slowly, and would have done it fast if we and the AOPA hadn't complained about it. Now I fully well expect ADS-B to be held hostage to the FAA's funding scam: ===================================================================== FAA: Funding Tied To Modernization The FAA must implement changes to the way it is funded before it can afford to embrace the myriad technologies that are envisioned for the Next Generation Air Transportation System, according to senior FAA staffers. Appearing before the Senate aviation subcommittee, Charles Leader, director of the Joint Planning and Development Office, told committee members that the controversial system of user fees and tax increases now under consideration by Congress for FAA reauthorization is a key element of FAA modernization. "Modernization and moving to NextGen is inextricably linked to changes in the FAA’s financing system," Leader said. ======================================================================== I guess we can expect the FAA to axe or radically slow down ADS-B in retaliation for not getting what they want. It would not work in any case. The attempt to shift costs to GA would yield less than the present system on day one, and rapidly decline as GA users bailed out of aviation or cut back on operations. Scott Moore Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S On Mar 26, 9:33 am, scott moore <nos...@nowhere.com> wrote: Quote: Mode-S/TIS transponders cost more, turns out, they cost substantially more to certify for IFR as well. I'm beginning to come around to the viewpoint of those here who say that any modernization that comes from the FAA will usually be a costly waste of time. The FAA is abandoning TIS slowly, and would have done it fast if we and the AOPA hadn't complained about it. Now I fully well expect ADS-B to be held hostage to the FAA's funding scam: ===================================================================== FAA: Funding Tied To Modernization The FAA must implement changes to the way it is funded before it can afford to embrace the myriad technologies that are envisioned for the Next Generation Air Transportation System, according to senior FAA staffers. Appearing before the Senate aviation subcommittee, Charles Leader, director of the Joint Planning and Development Office, told committee members that the controversial system of user fees and tax increases now under consideration by Congress for FAA reauthorization is a key element of FAA modernization. "Modernization and moving to NextGen is inextricably linked to changes in the FAA's financing system," Leader said. ======================================================================== I guess we can expect the FAA to axe or radically slow down ADS-B in retaliation for not getting what they want. It would not work in any case. The attempt to shift costs to GA would yield less than the present system on day one, and rapidly decline as GA users bailed out of aviation or cut back on operations. Scott Moore Our 182T has TIS. Its a very nice system but it doesn't seem very necessary in the face of ADS-B. -Robert Back to top Matt Barrow Guest Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S "scott moore" <nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message news:0ZGdnYYWcaBFaJrbnZ2dnUVZ_r2onZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... Quote: Mode-S/TIS transponders cost more, turns out, they cost substantially more to certify for IFR as well. I'm beginning to come around to the viewpoint of those here who say that any modernization that comes from the FAA will usually be a costly waste of time. The FAA is abandoning TIS slowly, and would have done it fast if we and the AOPA hadn't complained about it. Now I fully well expect ADS-B to be held hostage to the FAA's funding scam: ===================================================================== FAA: Funding Tied To Modernization The FAA must implement changes to the way it is funded before it can afford to embrace the myriad technologies that are envisioned for the Next Generation Air Transportation System, according to senior FAA staffers. Appearing before the Senate aviation subcommittee, Charles Leader, director of the Joint Planning and Development Office, told committee members that the controversial system of user fees and tax increases now under consideration by Congress for FAA reauthorization is a key element of FAA modernization. "Modernization and moving to NextGen is inextricably linked to changes in the FAA’s financing system," Leader said. Get ahold of Robert Poole's article in the November issues of "Professional Pilot" if you can(or leave me a note and I'll send you it in PDF form). He goes into some detail about the issue from the standpoint of User Fee's in just that manner. Matt B. Back to top Paul Tomblin Guest Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S In a previous article, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> said: Quote: C J Campbell writes: Are you sure that the FAA funds GPS satellites? I don't believe the FAA contributes anything to GPS satellites. They do contribute to WAAS, but there are no satellites in that. Wanna bet? http://gps.faa.gov/FAQ/index.htm "These correction messages are then broadcast through communication satellites to receivers onboard aircraft using the same frequency as GPS." But that's just the FAA, what do they know. Obviously you got better information from your flight simulator manual. -- Paul Tomblin <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> http://blog.xcski.com/ And the Prime Directive would be a valid excuse to do absolutely nothing all day. "I can't fix $LUSER's problem, because to do so would interfere with their development/evolution. Sorry." -- James Turinsky Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S C J Campbell writes: Quote: Are you sure that the FAA funds GPS satellites? I don't believe the FAA contributes anything to GPS satellites. They do contribute to WAAS, but there are no satellites in that. Quote: VORs are on the hit list anyway. Eventually, they will all be shut down, just like Omega, VAR, and NDB. And then the terrorists can have a field day with just one little box in a field near busy airspace. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top John R. Copeland Guest Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S "C J Campbell" <christophercampbell (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:2007032711300622503-christophercampbell@hotmailcom... Quote: On 2007-03-26 23:13:16 -0700, scott moore <nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> said: Let's say, just say, that the FAA disappeared. WAAS would die, right? Are you sure that the FAA funds GPS satellites? He said WAAS. Back to top Paul Tomblin Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S In a previous article, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> said: Quote: Paul Tomblin writes: Wanna bet? http://gps.faa.gov/FAQ/index.htm "These correction messages are then broadcast through communication satellites to receivers onboard aircraft using the same frequency as GPS." The communication satellites mentioned are not GPS satellites. Your statement, I quote was "They do contribute to WAAS, but there are no satellites in that." There *are* satellites in that, so you are wrong. 100% wrong. Admit it and stop weaseling. -- Paul Tomblin <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> http://blog.xcski.com/ Today is a good day. Not because anything wonderful is happening, so much, but because my definition of a 'bad day' has been revised. -- Chris Klein Back to top Paul Tomblin Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:41 am    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S In a previous article, Roger <GetValidAddress (AT) my (DOT) com> said: Quote: On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:43:48 +0000 (UTC), ptomblin+netnews (AT) xcski (DOT) com (Paul Tomblin) wrote: "These correction messages are then broadcast through communication satellites to receivers onboard aircraft using the same frequency as GPS." The only thing I found was slightly different. "These corrections messages are then broadcast to receivers onboard the aircraft using the frequency as the GPS". It said nothing about being broadcast through communications satellites, or I missed it. If you were using WAAS, you should get to know the WAAS satellite coverage areas. I think they fixed the problem, but for a while there the coverage was piss poor is in New Hampshire and Maine. Quote: IF correction messages can be sent from local areas back to satellites that would make they very vulnerable to tampering with the data. At one time the FAA was talking about using ground based broadcast stations, called LAAS (Local Area Augmentation System). (Which, by the way, used different frequencies than the GPS constellation.) As far as I know, none have been deployed yet or they dropped the idea. -- Paul Tomblin <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> http://blog.xcski.com/ "Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." - Colin Powell (pre-sell out) Back to top Roger Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:43:48 +0000 (UTC), ptomblin+netnews (AT) xcski (DOT) com (Paul Tomblin) wrote: Quote: In a previous article, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> said: C J Campbell writes: Are you sure that the FAA funds GPS satellites? I don't believe the FAA contributes anything to GPS satellites. They do contribute to WAAS, but there are no satellites in that. Wanna bet? http://gps.faa.gov/FAQ/index.htm "These correction messages are then broadcast through communication satellites to receivers onboard aircraft using the same frequency as GPS." The only thing I found was slightly different. "These corrections messages are then broadcast to receivers onboard the aircraft using the frequency as the GPS". It said nothing about being broadcast through communications satellites, or I missed it. IF correction messages can be sent from local areas back to satellites that would make they very vulnerable to tampering with the data. Quote: But that's just the FAA, what do they know. Obviously you got better information from your flight simulator manual. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S Paul Tomblin writes: Quote: Wanna bet? http://gps.faa.gov/FAQ/index.htm "These correction messages are then broadcast through communication satellites to receivers onboard aircraft using the same frequency as GPS." The communication satellites mentioned are not GPS satellites. Quote: But that's just the FAA, what do they know. Obviously you got better information from your flight simulator manual. No, I got my information from the original GPS specifications, years ago, along with some later reading to try to keep up on trends. That's one reason why I'm able to distinguish between communication satellites and navigation satellites when I read about them, which helps prevent me from saying foolish things in open discussions. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S Roger writes: Quote: The only thing I found was slightly different. "These corrections messages are then broadcast to receivers onboard the aircraft using the frequency as the GPS". It said nothing about being broadcast through communications satellites, or I missed it. As I recall, the WAAS correction data are broadcast over large areas by relaying them through communication satellites. However, these communication satellites are not part of the GPS system, and they are not GPS satellites. Quote: IF correction messages can be sent from local areas back to satellites that would make they very vulnerable to tampering with the data. Yes. But the satellites in question are not part of GPS, fortunately. It _is_ a bit unfortunate that WAAS is using the same frequencies to create pseudosatellites, which is essentially spoofing GPS, and it's not a good idea to have spoofing technology in such widespread use, no matter what the justification. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top John R. Copeland Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S "Paul Tomblin" <ptomblin+netnews (AT) xcski (DOT) com> wrote in message news:euch46$mrh$2 (AT) allhats (DOT) xcski.com... Quote: At one time the FAA was talking about using ground based broadcast stations, called LAAS (Local Area Augmentation System). (Which, by the way, used different frequencies than the GPS constellation.) As far as I know, none have been deployed yet or they dropped the idea. That reminds me -- I miss hearing from John "WAAS-is-dead" Tarver. He was almost as amusing as the manic simmers. Maybe we ignored John too much and he went away. Our loss, I guess. :-/ Back to top andrew m. boardman Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S Paul Tomblin <ptomblin+netnews (AT) xcski (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: If you were using WAAS, you should get to know the WAAS satellite coverage areas. I think they fixed the problem, but for a while there the coverage was piss poor is in New Hampshire and Maine. I don't know if I'd call it "piss poor", but much of Maine and ocasionally the rest of New England lose LPV coverage often. Southern California often loses out, too. Here's a real-time coverage map: http://www.nstb.tc.faa.gov/vpl.html Back to top Jon Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S On Mar 27, 9:33 pm, ptomblin+netn...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) wrote: Quote: In a previous article, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> said: Paul Tomblin writes: Wanna bet? http://gps.faa.gov/FAQ/index.htm "These correction messages are then broadcast through communication satellites to receivers onboard aircraft using the same frequency as GPS." The communication satellites mentioned are not GPS satellites. Your statement, I quote was "They do contribute to WAAS, but there are no satellites in that." There *are* satellites in that, so you are wrong. 100% wrong. Admit it and stop weaseling. Not to mention "contribute to WAAS" being off the mark. It's worth pointing out that the GEOs also being used to provide a separate ranging source (bent pipe) in addition to the information being supplied (corrections, integrity, etc.) in the WAAS messages. Quote: -- Paul Tomblin <ptomb...@xcski.com>http://blog.xcski.com/ Today is a good day. Not because anything wonderful is happening, so much, but because my definition of a 'bad day' has been revised. -- Chris Klein Regards, Jon Back to top scott moore Guest Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The nail in the coffin: TIS and Mode-S John R. Copeland wrote: Quote: "C J Campbell" <christophercampbell (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:2007032711300622503-christophercampbell@hotmailcom... On 2007-03-26 23:13:16 -0700, scott moore <nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> said: Let's say, just say, that the FAA disappeared. WAAS would die, right? Are you sure that the FAA funds GPS satellites? He said WAAS. Excellent. Someone who reads. 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