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Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel

 
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bbutlergps
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote



Howdy,
I am very interested in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have
any information on either the: Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo
Diesel (can be chipped up to 112 hp) found in the Smart ForFour or
VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4 liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be
chipped up to 108 hp)
What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
Thanks,
Bill

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wesleymarceaux
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote



I have done some research on diesel engines for aviation and I have come
across a thing are two that kinda concerns me . One is DUTY CYCLE,,,the
other is RPM . What a person wants on the front end of an airplane is a
"TRACTOR" motor designed to plow fields,,,so to speak..Same as an engine in
a boat. the duty placed on the engine is the same . The load is continuous
and increases as RPM increases .The power available from a diesel engine is
continuous to destruction . If you overload a diesel engine it will destroy
itself ,break the crank or bust a sleeve or piston rod , headgasket ect..
thus the reason for the duty cycle . Any Aircraft engine in public use today
has a 100% dutycycle at full throttle .check it out,,don't take my word for
it . An engine in an automobile has less than a 20% duty cycle at rated
HP.,,then you want to force it to do more and then put it in an airplane and
fly behind it.?? As you increase the output on an auto engine the duty cycle
goes down . 20% duty cycle would mean two minutes at full throttle out of
ten....then you must take the load off otherwise you will damage the engine.
In the air that's a bad thing. RPM is the thing that gives your engine long
life . The higher the RPM the shorter the engine life .Pertymuch goes for
any piston engine . That's where the reduction gear on the front end helps
the prop,,, putting the peak Hp.& torque at the rated engine output curves
.. To find a small,,light diesel with 65 hp or above with a 100% duty cycle
is too good to be true..even 65hp at 100% duty cycle at 250 pounds..If one
was to be made,,at a price most of us could afford aviation as we know it
would change...Faa would step in and control the amount of fuel one could
carry . suddenly everyone's plane would be a cross country craft as the
diesel would double the time in the air.. just my thinking though,,hope
this doesn't step on anyone's dreams......wes
"bbutlergps" <billbutlergps (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1164985047.448240.128360 (AT) 79g2000cws (DOT) googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Howdy,
I am very interested in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have
any information on either the: Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo
Diesel (can be chipped up to 112 hp) found in the Smart ForFour or
VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4 liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be
chipped up to 108 hp)
What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
Thanks,
Bill
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bbutlergps
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:47 am    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

No you aren't stomping on my dreams and I take your advice. However
EcoFly out of Germany www.ecofly.de has been putting them in Funk's
FK-9 and Silence aircraft out of Britain has also started putting in
that same power plant. Also Zenith 701 and 601 have a couple of those
same power plant. The LSA aircraft that I am looking at is the 701 but
I don't have unlimited funds and looking at other options for my power
plant and diesel seems to fit my needs nicely. This aircraft will be
flown basically out of our Ranch in North Texas and wouldn't be going
further out than 200 miles (who would want to make a cross country
flight in a 701)?
I am just looking at other options other than the Smart's smaller
engine (that of the 60 hp found in the above mentioned aircraft).
I looking at the possibility of other diesel power plants such as the
Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo Diesel found in the Smart ForFour
or VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4 liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel.
Thanks,
Bill

On Jan 27, 4:36 pm, "wesleymarceaux" <wesleymarce...@cox.net> wrote:
Quote:
I have done some research on diesel engines for aviation and I have come
across a thing are two that kinda concerns me . One is DUTY CYCLE,,,the
other is RPM . What a person wants on the front end of an airplane is a
"TRACTOR" motor designed to plow fields,,,so to speak..Same as an engine in
a boat. the duty placed on the engine is the same . The load is continuous
and increases as RPM increases .The power available from a diesel engine is
continuous to destruction . If you overload a diesel engine it will destroy
itself ,break the crank or bust a sleeve or piston rod , headgasket ect..
thus the reason for the duty cycle . Any Aircraft engine in public use today
has a 100% dutycycle at full throttle .check it out,,don't take my word for
it . An engine in an automobile has less than a 20% duty cycle at rated
HP.,,then you want to force it to do more and then put it in an airplane and
fly behind it.?? As you increase the output on an auto engine the duty cycle
goes down . 20% duty cycle would mean two minutes at full throttle out of
ten....then you must take the load off otherwise you will damage the engine.
In the air that's a bad thing. RPM is the thing that gives your engine long
life . The higher the RPM the shorter the engine life .Pertymuch goes for
any piston engine . That's where the reduction gear on the front end helps
the prop,,, putting the peak Hp.& torque at the rated engine output curves
. To find a small,,light diesel with 65 hp or above with a 100% duty cycle
is too good to be true..even 65hp at 100% duty cycle at 250 pounds..If one
was to be made,,at a price most of us could afford aviation as we know it
would change...Faa would step in and control the amount of fuel one could
carry . suddenly everyone's plane would be a cross country craft as the
diesel would double the time in the air.. just my thinking though,,hope
this doesn't step on anyone's dreams......wes"bbutlergps" <billbutler...@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:1164985047.448240.128360 (AT) 79g2000cws (DOT) googlegroups.com...



Howdy,
I am very interested in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have
any information on either the: Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo
Diesel (can be chipped up to 112 hp) found in the Smart ForFour or
VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4 liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be
chipped up to 108 hp)
What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
Thanks,
Bill- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Back to top
James Sleeman
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

On Jan 29, 9:47 am, "bbutlergps" <billbutler...@aol.com> wrote:
Quote:
No you aren't stomping on my dreams and I take your advice. However
EcoFly out of Germanywww.ecofly.dehas been putting them in Funk's
FK-9 and Silence aircraft out of Britain has also started putting in

Did I miss something? ecofly.de is putting in the petrol Smart
engine, not diesel.
Here is the engine manual: http://www.ecofly.de/download/
Manual_smart_Nov_2005.pdf
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James Sleeman
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

http://www.eco-motors.com/Products.htm

An 80hp and a 100hp (max @ 5 min) diesel aircraft engine (non
certified), looks like currently being flown in DynAero aircraft. The
100 installation is about 23kg heavier than a comparable 912S
installation so they say, that's quite a weight penalty for an LSA or
Ultralight.

Demonstrator burning between 9 and 10 liters an hour at cruise, on
Diesel or a JetA1+2Stroke mix.
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bbutlergps
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

On EcoFly's website go into Price / Order (it is the third engine
down).
Bill

On Jan 29, 1:05 am, "James Sleeman" <bitsybof...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 29, 9:47 am, "bbutlergps" <billbutler...@aol.com> wrote:

No you aren't stomping on my dreams and I take your advice. However
EcoFly out of Germanywww.ecofly.dehasbeen putting them in Funk's
FK-9 and Silence aircraft out of Britain has also started putting inDid I miss something? ecofly.de is putting in the petrol Smart
engine, not diesel.
Here is the engine manual:http://www.ecofly.de/download/
Manual_smart_Nov_2005.pdf
Back to top
rob
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

This seems an interesting source for aviation diesel. Europe of
course.
http://www.zoche.de/specs.html
These engines seem a marvelous step in the right direction, I would be
really watching the fuel I put in the tank though. Especially in the
US. With the low sulfur initiative that is law (2010 cut over if I
recall correctly), the sulfur is coming out to improve the
environmental quailities and the lubricity is going to be dropping.
This has a really bad effect on the diesel fuel pumps life, unless you
go with fuel additives to correct the problem.
-Rob.

On Dec 1 2006, 8:57 am, "bbutlergps" <billbutler...@aol.com> wrote:
Quote:
Howdy,
I am very interested in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have
any information on either the: Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo
Diesel (can be chipped up to 112 hp) found in the Smart ForFour or
VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4 liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be
chipped up to 108 hp)
What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
Thanks,
Bill
Back to top
James Sleeman
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

On Jan 30, 9:28 am, "rob" <mckenzie....@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
This seems an interesting source for aviation diesel. Europe of
course.http://www.zoche.de/specs.html

Digging through the site it looks like they have been working on this
engine since 1992 at least. That seems a long time to be developing
an engine and not to have brought any to market yet. Seems they only
have the prototype on a testbench in a windtunnel.

Thier smallest (predicted) model seems roughly equivalent to a 582 in
power output and about 20kg heavier. The TBO of 2000 hours is nice
but by the sounds of it they are only going to sell certified engines,
and all the repair/rebuild (anything except your basic oil change type
stuff) will require it going back to the factory (they will exchange
at overhaul with a new one, and take the old one out of aircraft
service permanantly).

It all sounds a bit vaporware to me.
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bbutlergps
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

Rob,
What have you read about the 2010 cut over that is realated to off
road (tax exempt) diesel?
As for Zoche as James states below nothing has come from that group in
quite some time.
Bill

On Jan 29, 2:28 pm, "rob" <mckenzie....@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
This seems an interesting source for aviation diesel. Europe of
course.http://www.zoche.de/specs.html
These engines seem a marvelous step in the right direction, I would be
really watching the fuel I put in the tank though. Especially in the
US. With the low sulfur initiative that is law (2010 cut over if I
recall correctly), the sulfur is coming out to improve the
environmental quailities and the lubricity is going to be dropping.
This has a really bad effect on the diesel fuel pumps life, unless you
go with fuel additives to correct the problem.
-Rob.

On Dec 1 2006, 8:57 am, "bbutlergps" <billbutler...@aol.com> wrote:



Howdy,
I am very interested in going the route of a diesel. Would anybody have
any information on either the: Smart (Mercedes) 3 cyl. 95 hp Turbo
Diesel (can be chipped up to 112 hp) found in the Smart ForFour or
VW Lupo or Fox (euro) 3 cyl. 1.4 liter 70 hp Turbo Diesel (can be
chipped up to 108 hp)
What I am most interested in is weight and the PSRU.
Thanks,
Bill- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Back to top
rob
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Smart Turbo Diesel or VW Lugo Diesel Reply with quote

On Jan 30, 8:20 am, "bbutlergps" <billbutler...@aol.com> wrote:
Quote:
Rob,
What have you read about the 2010 cut over that is realated to off
road (tax exempt) diesel?

These guys have the final say:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/highway-diesel/index.htm

these guys are a more interesting read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel

see part ii) this is the issue that seems like it could be costly
http://www.enginemanufacturers.org/admin/library/upload/192.pdf

It is happening faster than I thought, 2007, but with lots of
exceptions. CA is different than the rest of the country, and marine
and off road look like they are going to be treated special except in
CA. Marine and off road look to be bringing the sulfur down to 500
ppm rather than 15 ppm, but that still might have issues for those
engines as well if they weren't designed for it. Happy motoring...
-Rob
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