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Rough Engine, please help
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John Clonts
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:27 pm    Post subject: Rough Engine, please help Reply with quote



The IO-520 in my Cessna 210 is running rough. It seems to run smooth
at 1000 rpm but the roughness appears above about 1400. One cylinder
is “cold” and apparently not producing any power. I
pulled the rocker cover and found that the intake valve spring was
broken. My mechanic and I replaced it yesterday. But the cylinder is
still not producing. The compression is good (74/80). The spark
plugs are good. He’s going to check the flow through the fuel
injector later today.

Any more ideas? What should we do next?

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


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rip
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help Reply with quote



At the very least, borescope that cylinder, and especially its valves.
Compression may be terrific if a valve never opens!

Rip

John Clonts wrote:
Quote:
The IO-520 in my Cessna 210 is running rough. It seems to run smooth
at 1000 rpm but the roughness appears above about 1400. One cylinder
is “cold” and apparently not producing any power. I
pulled the rocker cover and found that the intake valve spring was
broken. My mechanic and I replaced it yesterday. But the cylinder is
still not producing. The compression is good (74/80). The spark
plugs are good. He’s going to check the flow through the fuel
injector later today.

Any more ideas? What should we do next?

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


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Roger Long
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help Reply with quote

If anything has happened in the valve train, you should verify that the cam
lobe and lifter face are still good. The broken valve spring might be the
result of cam wear or something entirely unrelated could have happened and
the improper function of the valve train could have damaged the lifter.

The valve train is very delicate and has some of the highest stresses in the
engine. Any difficulty should result in a complete check from the cam
through to the valve seat.

I know of one case where a broken valve stem was simple replaced. The
engine later lost power on take off and three people died.
--
Roger Long


John Clonts <cramapple (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:
The IO-520 in my Cessna 210 is running rough. It seems to run smooth
at 1000 rpm but the roughness appears above about 1400. One cylinder
is “cold” and apparently not producing any power. I
pulled the rocker cover and found that the intake valve spring was
broken. My mechanic and I replaced it yesterday. But the cylinder is
still not producing. The compression is good (74/80). The spark
plugs are good. He’s going to check the flow through the fuel
injector later today.

Any more ideas? What should we do next?

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ



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One's Too Many
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:40 am    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help Reply with quote

I'd have that whole cylinder removed and sent off to be
checked/rebuilt by a good qualified repair station. Our 172 is in the
shop right now due to one cylinder intermittantly running cold and not
making power. We had the jug pulled and upon first examination, the
intake valve had lead deposits on the face/seat and was only sealing
sometimes, yielding zero compression during one check, and 74/80 the
next time around. My A&P suspects the guide and or stem may have some
slop too, so we're just going to have the valves in that one jug
rebuilt since the other 3 are fine and the engine is only mid-time.
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John Clonts
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote


"John Clonts" <cramapple (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:
The IO-520 in my Cessna 210 is running rough. It seems to run smooth
at 1000 rpm but the roughness appears above about 1400. One cylinder
is “cold” and apparently not producing any power. I
pulled the rocker cover and found that the intake valve spring was
broken. My mechanic and I replaced it yesterday. But the cylinder is
still not producing. The compression is good (74/80). The spark
plugs are good. He’s going to check the flow through the fuel
injector later today.

Any more ideas? What should we do next?


Thanks for the replies. It WAS the fuel injector, which was blocked.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ




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Jay Honeck
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:03 am    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks for the replies. It WAS the fuel injector, which was blocked.

Good deal, John.

Any idea what caused the clogged injector? Bad gas?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



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Dennis O'Connor
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

A broken spring and a clogged injector... Murphy does not like you, does
he...
denny
"John Clonts" <me (AT) forgetaboutit (DOT) com> wrote in


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John Clonts
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

"Jay Honeck" <jjhoneck (AT) NOSPAMmchsi (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:
Thanks for the replies. It WAS the fuel injector, which was blocked.

Good deal, John.

Any idea what caused the clogged injector? Bad gas?

Good question!

My mechanic posited that the broken valve spring somehow facilitated
the clogging of the injector. I'm not sure I can see that...

Also, it's kinda hard to resolve the "intermittent" nature of the
problem from flight to flight beginning a month or so ago, i.e. "When
did the valve spring break?", and "When did the injector clog-- and
was it suddenly, or gradually?".

I will be pondering these things during my next few flights!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

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Roger Long
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

I repeat. Make that next flight after the entire valve train has been
checked. Just the broken spring could have caused other damage that will
come back to bite you. I've been talking to another guy who had the lifters
in his 210 go bad just under 700 hours even without any broken valve
springs.

The cam shaft is driven directly by the engine and, when things go wrong in
the rather delicate valve train, all that power can really screw things up.
--
Roger Long

John Clonts <cramapple (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:
"Jay Honeck" <jjhoneck (AT) NOSPAMmchsi (DOT) com> wrote

Thanks for the replies. It WAS the fuel injector, which was blocked.

Good deal, John.

Any idea what caused the clogged injector? Bad gas?

Good question!

My mechanic posited that the broken valve spring somehow facilitated
the clogging of the injector. I'm not sure I can see that...

Also, it's kinda hard to resolve the "intermittent" nature of the
problem from flight to flight beginning a month or so ago, i.e. "When
did the valve spring break?", and "When did the injector clog-- and
was it suddenly, or gradually?".

I will be pondering these things during my next few flights!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ



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papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDO
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

Jay Honeck <jjhoneck (AT) nospammchsi (DOT) com> wrote:
:> Thanks for the replies. It WAS the fuel injector, which was blocked.

: Good deal, John.

: Any idea what caused the clogged injector? Bad gas?
: --
: Jay Honeck
: Iowa City, IA
: Pathfinder N56993
: www.AlexisParkInn.com
: "Your Aviation Destination"

Speaking of which, Jay... did you ever swap your Grape's fuel filter and cut
open the old one? I ended up rigging a funky plumbing concoction with water-absorbing
spin-on filter for refueling from 6 gallon cans.

-Cory

--
*************************************************************************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
*************************************************************************

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Michael
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

[email]cramapple (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email] (John Clonts) wrote
Quote:
My mechanic posited that the broken valve spring somehow facilitated
the clogging of the injector. I'm not sure I can see that...

That's because it makes no sense whatsoever. Your mechanic is
grasping at straws because he doesn't know what's going on either.

First off, while it was certainly necessary to replace your broken
spring, the truth is that the spring can be broken and still work for
a long time. The ONLY function of the spring is to keep the valve
closed and seated when the lifter isn't pushing on it, to keep gases
from leaking through and eroding the valve/seat. If your compression
is really 74/80, then the spring was doing the job. Otherwise, you
would see leakage past the intake valve.

The fuel injector is actually a nozzle - it sprays fuel onto the
intake valve. The spring never gets near it. Even if some flakes
came off the spring when it cracked, there's no way for them to get
into the fuel. What you're positing here is that a metal flake, small
enough to get into the injector, but big enough to clog it, somehow
came off the spring and bounced around and got in. Pretty far
fetched, IMO.

In all likelihood, the problems (clogged injector and broken spring)
are unrelated. I know how that sounds, but bear with me. The art of
troubleshooting is really all about Occam's Razor. We look for the
least hypothesis - what ONE point failure will explain all the
symptoms. A good troubleshooter who knows the system well will find
the problem quickly, because the list is usually pretty short. When
you stump a good troubleshooter, it's usually because there is no one
point failure. It's two or more. The planes we fly are so old and so
poorly designed, and the parts are so poorly made, that unfortunately
multiple failures are not too rare. Every time a problem stumped me,
that's what it turned out to be.

Quote:
Also, it's kinda hard to resolve the "intermittent" nature of the
problem from flight to flight beginning a month or so ago, i.e. "When
did the valve spring break?", and "When did the injector clog-- and
was it suddenly, or gradually?".

I will be pondering these things during my next few flights!

Intermittent fuel injector clogging is the result of one of two things
- bad fuel or rust. Did you save the material that clogged it? You
should put it under the microscope and look at it. Metal is shiny,
rust is reddish, both are magnetic. Shiny metal would suggest that
the one in a million happened, and a piece of spring did get in there.
If this really happened, lunch is on me next time you make it to
Weiser.

Non-magnetic crud implicates fuel. Flush and clean the tanks, and
hope for the best.

Rust implicates the fuel servo. Check everything past the fuel filter
carefully. I had this problem before (and it lead to an inflight
failure) and tracked the problem to a corroding fuel filter plug. Be
careful - next time you may lose more than one cylinder.

Michael

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John Clonts
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

Ok Roger, Thanks. I'll see if we can get together soon to check that
out. How do you check the cam-- pull the rocker arms, pushrods, and
lifters, and peek into the hole where the lifters were?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ


"Roger Long" <rwlong.take.out.obvious.antispam.stuff (AT) maine (DOT) rr.com> wrote

Quote:
I repeat. Make that next flight after the entire valve train has been
checked. Just the broken spring could have caused other damage that will
come back to bite you. I've been talking to another guy who had the lifters
in his 210 go bad just under 700 hours even without any broken valve
springs.

The cam shaft is driven directly by the engine and, when things go wrong in
the rather delicate valve train, all that power can really screw things up.
--
Roger Long

John Clonts <cramapple (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:a5290b32.0402200713.14b8b77 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com...
"Jay Honeck" <jjhoneck (AT) NOSPAMmchsi (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:<pygZb.224397$U%5.1418539@attbi_s03>...
Thanks for the replies. It WAS the fuel injector, which was blocked.

Good deal, John.

Any idea what caused the clogged injector? Bad gas?

Good question!

My mechanic posited that the broken valve spring somehow facilitated
the clogging of the injector. I'm not sure I can see that...

Also, it's kinda hard to resolve the "intermittent" nature of the
problem from flight to flight beginning a month or so ago, i.e. "When
did the valve spring break?", and "When did the injector clog-- and
was it suddenly, or gradually?".

I will be pondering these things during my next few flights!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

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Jay Honeck
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:32 am    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

Quote:
Speaking of which, Jay... did you ever swap your Grape's fuel filter and
cut
open the old one? I ended up rigging a funky plumbing concoction with
water-absorbing
spin-on filter for refueling from 6 gallon cans.

I swapped the fuel filter -- but it was too danged cold at the hangar to cut
the thing open.

Next one is due to be swapped soon. With the warmer weather, I'll cut this
one, although I don't expect to find much. (Pretty new tank on the Grape
plus brand new tank at the gas station should -- I hope -- equal pretty
clean gas...)

It'll be interesting to see what is being caught.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



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papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDO
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

Jay Honeck <jjhoneck (AT) nospammchsi (DOT) com> wrote:
: It'll be interesting to see what is being caught.

That's why I rigged in my filter. Before that, I always saw a very small
amount of brownish water (about 1/4 teaspoon) in each tank on every sump check. Also
trace amounts of very fine flakes (rust?). I *never* saw any of it that made it
into the gascolator.

Now with the water-absorbing filter spout, I only get a trace amount of water
if it's condensed in the tanks (if not flown for a few weeks). No debris at all.
Much more reassuring.

-Cory



--
*************************************************************************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
*************************************************************************

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David Lesher
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:37 am    Post subject: Re: Rough Engine, please help -- SOLVED Reply with quote

"Jay Honeck" <jjhoneck (AT) NOSPAMmchsi (DOT) com> writes:


Quote:
Next one is due to be swapped soon. With the warmer weather, I'll cut this
one, although I don't expect to find much. (Pretty new tank on the Grape
plus brand new tank at the gas station should -- I hope -- equal pretty
clean gas...)


ROTFL....

The dirt arrives in the tanker just the way the gas does....


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz (AT) nrk (DOT) com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

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