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Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172?
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Steven Barnes
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote




"C Kingsbury" <cwkingsbury (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:
Googling the group yielded little so here goes...

1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from a
few centuries ago)

The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require ADF,
and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.

My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only the
moving map is a big plus.
[snip]


If I remember correctly, you can use a GPS as a substitute for ADF for darn
near everything except an actual ADF approach. You can navigate to/from the
"ADF", hold at it, use it to define a marker/compass locator. Many NDB
approaches have some sort of GPS overlay, but I've seen a few around here
that didn't.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (i was wrong last year, i guess i'm due
again...)






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drs@canby.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote



I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.
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PInc972390
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Quote:
My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup.

I have a GX 60 NO 1, Gx65 NO 2, Radar Altimeter, Annunciator, Glideslope, but
the main and most used GPS was and is a 195, 295, 196, 296 in that order of
purchace. Outside of the comm the portables have a lot more features. Look at
these closely before you buy a GX 60 or 430.

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Hankal
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.


If you are going to spend $$ to have an IFR plane the I would spend the other
10K to get a 430 Garmin GPS

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C Kingsbury
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Roy Smith <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote


Quote:
I wouldn't waste any time or money trying to fix an ADF today.

My point exactly. Good money after bad IMHO.

Quote:
My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the

I don't know how much a GX-60 will add to the value of the plane. True,
it is an IFR approach certified GPS, but it's also a generation out of
date and doesn't have much sex appeal anymore.

A basic 1979 C-172 is not a vehicle for sex appeal. I want no-frills
utility. A 172 with an IFR GPS is a much more marketable beast than
one without, regardless of the GPS in question.

Quote:
My club has put in a mix of CNX-80's and GX-50/60's. The CNX is a much
more expensive unit, but it's also a much better box.

Would you put a 12k GPS install into a plane with a 172 with a 40k-ish
hull value? By the time you're done we're talking about nearly the
cost of an engine overhaul, which at 1800 tach hours may not be far
off. That will add a lot more back to the value, too. You can buy an
engine for the next guy but the avionics are for the current owner.

Quote:
I guess it all
depends on how deep your wallet is.

Figure somewhere between mud-puddle and pothole. Quite frankly I might
just end up repairing that damn fool ADF for just that reason.

-cwk.

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Dave Butler
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

[email]drs (AT) canby (DOT) com[/email] wrote:
Quote:
I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.

I do fly IFR and would like an approach-cert GPS, but I can't convince my
partners. I make do with a Garmin 196, and I have to admit, the difference in
capability of the airplane vs. having an approach-cert unit is very slight.
Having something mounted in the panel vs. yoke mount would be nice.


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drs@canby.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:18:37 -0400, Dave Butler
<flymSH20j (AT) hotIRmail (DOT) Tcom> wrote:

Quote:
drs (AT) canby (DOT) com wrote:
I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.

I do fly IFR and would like an approach-cert GPS, but I can't convince my
partners. I make do with a Garmin 196, and I have to admit, the difference in
capability of the airplane vs. having an approach-cert unit is very slight.
Having something mounted in the panel vs. yoke mount would be nice.

I think the 296 has approaches. At least they're long runway extension
lines that could be used for a straight-in approach. But not
certified, I'm sure.

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Dude
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Quote:
Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.


I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????



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Roy Smith
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

"JJS" <jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net> wrote:
Quote:
He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
rating.

If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?

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Mike H
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

No, no, no.... You DON'T want to try to repair that ADF.
We went that route for close to two years in our Archer, trying to
repair the Narco ADF and Navs/Coms. We just threw good money after bad.
We probably ended up sinking $2000 over a 2 year period before finally giving
in and going for a Garmin 430 and new King Nav/Com. It cost a pretty
penny (about $12000) but sure is nice now!

Mike

C Kingsbury wrote:
Quote:
Roy Smith <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote



I wouldn't waste any time or money trying to fix an ADF today.


My point exactly. Good money after bad IMHO.


My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the


I don't know how much a GX-60 will add to the value of the plane. True,
it is an IFR approach certified GPS, but it's also a generation out of
date and doesn't have much sex appeal anymore.


A basic 1979 C-172 is not a vehicle for sex appeal. I want no-frills
utility. A 172 with an IFR GPS is a much more marketable beast than
one without, regardless of the GPS in question.


My club has put in a mix of CNX-80's and GX-50/60's. The CNX is a much
more expensive unit, but it's also a much better box.


Would you put a 12k GPS install into a plane with a 172 with a 40k-ish
hull value? By the time you're done we're talking about nearly the
cost of an engine overhaul, which at 1800 tach hours may not be far
off. That will add a lot more back to the value, too. You can buy an
engine for the next guy but the avionics are for the current owner.


I guess it all
depends on how deep your wallet is.


Figure somewhere between mud-puddle and pothole. Quite frankly I might
just end up repairing that damn fool ADF for just that reason.

-cwk.


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Frank Stutzman
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Dude <dude (AT) dude (DOT) com> wrote:
Quote:
Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.


I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

(Currently in MI with a current Garmin West/Central DB. Guess where the
West/Central DB ends. )

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR


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Dave Butler
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Quote:
An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

Furthermore, an IFR GPS can be a legal substitute for an ADF for many
operations, but not all. AIM 1-1-19:

"The GPS Approach Overlay Program is an authorization for pilots to use GPS
avionics under IFR for flying designated nonprecision instrument approach
procedures, except LOC, LDA, and simplified directional facility (SDF)
procedures. These procedures are now identified by the name of the procedure and
"or GPS" (e.g., VOR/DME or GPS RWY 15). Other previous types of overlays have
either been converted to this format or replaced with stand-alone procedures.
Only approaches contained in the current onboard navigation database are
authorized. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay
approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation,
generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional
NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay
approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details
on how to identify these approaches in the navigation database)."









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papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDO
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

JJS <jschneider@remove sockspldi.net> wrote:
: He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
: KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
: IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
: rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
: money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
: or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
: it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
: and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
: support on the King KX-155's, too.

: Joe Schneider
: 8437R

You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is the Garmin
GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In general, I agree with the
concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't need or intend to
use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never plan on using the
GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in resale. If you have an
inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more information for real
advice.

-Cory

*************************************************************************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
*************************************************************************

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Elwood Dowd
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Quote:
rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject

Your reading of the threads has probably told you NOT to invest in IFR
avionics you aren't going to use. Someone said it recently here---you
might buy an engine for the next guy, but any avionics you buy are for
yourself. You won't recover anything near the cost of them if you sell
the plane.

If you are not going to get the rating, leave it to the next owner to
certify the plane.

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Frank Stutzman
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172? Reply with quote

Dave Butler <flymSH20j (AT) hotirmail (DOT) tcom> wrote:
Quote:
An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

True. The AFMS for my 430 installation does require a current DB and I
had forgotten that not all were that way.

My comment was more to the fact that the database has to be current for
the approach (i.e. the approach or waypoint must be in the database). As
I mentioned earlier, I'm currently visting outside of my normal database
coverage area. As I don't have the northern Michigan approaches in the
database, I can't do a GPS approach. Nor can I do any approach that
utilizes a NDB. Kinda limits my options.

Its the first time in the two years of flying behind the 430 that wish I
had kept my working ADF.





--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR


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