AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Light Twins. How soft??? Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Owning Airplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Montblack Guest Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:41 am    Post subject: Light Twins. How soft??? I keep hearing "the market for Light Twins is soft." Anyone have any tales to tell? Are used Light Twins not selling these days, or are they selling for what some would consider "bargain" prices, or both? Did the economy's shake-up knock quite a few people out of the Twin tree - people who were just barely holding on, "before" the shake-up? Basically, are there a glut of Light Twins on the market, now, because people overbought (or overspent) during the previous (guessing) 5 or 6 years? First thing to go when things get tight is the Twin? Are quite a few people trading (down) all at once? Or is something else happening? Are there *other* market dynamics at work here? Again, anyone have any tales to tell? (Wonder what the odds are of this thread hitting 300 posts? <g>) -- Montblack Back to top Paul Tomblin Guest Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? In a previous article, "Montblack" <DO-DA-OPPPPOSITE....montWHITE (AT) waveBACK (DOT) com> said: Quote: Are used Light Twins not selling these days, or are they selling for what some would consider "bargain" prices, or both? Or has it become damn near impossible to find an insurance company that will insure you in a light twin unless you have slightly more flying experience than Bob Hoover? -- Paul Tomblin <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ Mentally update my CV, paying special attention to the bits about how to say "Was Fired For Being A Prat" in a positive light. -- Eric the Read's bad day Back to top Craig Guest Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? [email]ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com[/email] (Paul Tomblin) wrote in message news:<bpqj4d$4uo$2 (AT) allhats (DOT) xcski.com>... Quote: In a previous article, "Montblack" <DO-DA-OPPPPOSITE....montWHITE (AT) waveBACK (DOT) com> said: Are used Light Twins not selling these days, or are they selling for what some would consider "bargain" prices, or both? Or has it become damn near impossible to find an insurance company that will insure you in a light twin unless you have slightly more flying experience than Bob Hoover? IF the FAA's proposed AD on Cessna 300/400 series wings comes out as it was proposed the last time I looked, it will definately drive those aircraft sales into the pits. The proposed fix isn't too expensive parts wise, but labor will be a killer. Their estimate for labor costs is over $17,000, and I think that was per wing.... Craig C. [email]cvairwerks (AT) ev1 (DOT) net[/email] Back to top Nathan Young Guest Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? [email]cvairwerks (AT) tigerbyte (DOT) net[/email] (Craig) wrote in message news:<3ca216ab.0311231020.44451864 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... Quote: ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com (Paul Tomblin) wrote in message news:<bpqj4d$4uo$2 (AT) allhats (DOT) xcski.com>... In a previous article, "Montblack" <DO-DA-OPPPPOSITE....montWHITE (AT) waveBACK (DOT) com> said: Are used Light Twins not selling these days, or are they selling for what some would consider "bargain" prices, or both? Or has it become damn near impossible to find an insurance company that will insure you in a light twin unless you have slightly more flying experience than Bob Hoover? IF the FAA's proposed AD on Cessna 300/400 series wings comes out as it was proposed the last time I looked, it will definately drive those aircraft sales into the pits. The proposed fix isn't too expensive parts wise, but labor will be a killer. Their estimate for labor costs is over $17,000, and I think that was per wing.... Is it the entire 3/400 series? Or just certain ones? Is their an NPRM or similar we can reference? -Nathan Back to top Ben Smith Guest Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? Quote: Is it the entire 3/400 series? Or just certain ones? Is their an NPRM or similar we can reference? This site has a little info: http://www.cessnatwinssparcorp.org/ -- Ben C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y Back to top Michael Guest Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? "Montblack" <DO-DA-OPPPPOSITE....montWHITE (AT) waveBACK (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I keep hearing "the market for Light Twins is soft." Soft really isn't the right word. Nonexistent is more like it. Quote: Are used Light Twins not selling these days, or are they selling for what some would consider "bargain" prices, or both? The ones that are selling are going for bargain prices. Mostly they're simply not selling, since most owners are simply not willing to take a beating. Those who have high quality light twins and can afford to keep them are mostly just keeping them. Quote: Did the economy's shake-up knock quite a few people out of the Twin tree - people who were just barely holding on, "before" the shake-up? Yes, some of that is going on. Those are the twins that are selling for bargain prices. They're no bargain. The people who were just barely holding on were the same ones skimping on maintenance. With money tight and a plan to sell, you can be certain that anything that could possibly be deferred was deferred, regarless of long-term consequences. The economy has been in the crapper for over two years now. The owners who are willing to sell at a bargain price are the same ones who have been getting pencilwhip annuals for the last two years or more. You might also manage to get a bargain if someone is trading up - but right now, very few light twin owners are trading up. In fact, most are looking to trade down. It doesn't help that a huge fraction of light twin owners are airline captains, and they're more worried about their financial future than most. Then there are the trainers. With flight training (especially foreign student training) in the crapper since 9/11, flight schools aren't buying. Not really a factor when you're looking at the 250+ hp/side class of twin, but a huge deal in the under-200 hp/side market. Michael Back to top Dennis O'Connor Guest Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? Well, depends... And, Bob Hoover I ain't... I just sent the payment for another year's renewal on my Apache... One million liability plus the value of the hull... $2990.00 ymmv Denny "Paul Tomblin" <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> wrote Quote: In a previous article, "Montblack" DO-DA-OPPPPOSITE....montWHITE (AT) waveBACK (DOT) com> said: Or has it become damn near impossible to find an insurance company that will insure you in a light twin unless you have slightly more flying experience than Bob Hoover? Mentally update my CV, paying special attention to the bits about how to say "Was Fired For Being A Prat" in a positive light. -- Eric the Read's bad day Back to top Paul Tomblin Guest Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? In a previous article, "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor (AT) chartermi (DOT) net> said: Quote: Well, depends... And, Bob Hoover I ain't... I just sent the payment for another year's renewal on my Apache... One million liability plus the value of the hull... $2990.00 ymmv Is this a plane you've owned for a while, or one that you've bought recently? I've heard it's absolutely impossible to get insurance for buying a twin in a large partnership or flying club, but if they already had a twin it's possible to renew it (just barely). I've also heard it's getting much much harder for single owners to get insurance for a twin unless they owned it a few years ago. -- Paul Tomblin <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test key out of my cold, lifeless hands. -- Simon Travaglia Back to top Kyler Laird Guest Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:08 am    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor (AT) chartermi (DOT) net> writes: Quote: Well, depends... And, Bob Hoover I ain't... I just sent the payment for another year's renewal on my Apache... One million liability plus the value of the hull... $2990.00 ymmv Maybe you should trade up to an Aztec and save some money. (Ha ha!) http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=805381dd000a91ed&seekm=3bk881-r3p.ln1%40jowls.lairds.org&frame=off I just realized that I have the policy details now. I'll post them in that thread. --kyler Back to top Dennis O'Connor Guest Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? I bought Fat Albert in '99... I have been a plane owner for 40 years, but this is the first twin I've owned.. denny "Paul Tomblin" <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> wrote Quote: In a previous article, "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor (AT) chartermi (DOT) net> said: Well, depends... And, Bob Hoover I ain't... I just sent the payment for another year's renewal on my Apache... One million liability plus the value of the hull... $2990.00 ymmv Is this a plane you've owned for a while, or one that you've bought recently? I've heard it's absolutely impossible to get insurance for buying a twin in a large partnership or flying club, but if they already had a twin it's possible to renew it (just barely). I've also heard it's getting much much harder for single owners to get insurance for a twin unless they owned it a few years ago. -- Paul Tomblin <ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com> http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test key out of my cold, lifeless hands. -- Simon Travaglia Back to top Jay Honeck Guest Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? Quote: Or has it become damn near impossible to find an insurance company that will insure you in a light twin unless you have slightly more flying experience than Bob Hoover? It's not just airplane insurance. The insurance industry in America is in crisis. Insurance for the hotel just DOUBLED -- and no one else will even quote us. And, no, we haven't made a claim. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" Back to top Mike Rapoport Guest Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? If the stock market continues to perform well, premiums should come down. Since insurance companies collect premiums now and plan to pay claims in the future, the rate of return on the invested premiums is a critical part of the calculation of how much those premius should be in the first place. Mike MU-2 "Jay Honeck" <jjhoneckNOSPAM (AT) mchsi (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Or has it become damn near impossible to find an insurance company that will insure you in a light twin unless you have slightly more flying experience than Bob Hoover? It's not just airplane insurance. The insurance industry in America is in crisis. Insurance for the hotel just DOUBLED -- and no one else will even quote us. And, no, we haven't made a claim. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" Back to top Michael Guest Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? [email]ptomblin (AT) xcski (DOT) com[/email] (Paul Tomblin) wrote Quote: Is this a plane you've owned for a while, or one that you've bought recently? I'm not Dennis, but I've just renewed my insurance for the third time and I paid $2500 for a mil of liability and $85K of hull. I've also seen quotes of over $7000 for the same coverage on the same plane. The buyer had no multi rating, no instrument rating, and less than 250 TT. Quote: I've heard it's absolutely impossible to get insurance for buying a twin in a large partnership or flying club, but if they already had a twin it's possible to renew it (just barely). By large partnership, you probably mean more than 5 people. Most insurers treat you as a club at that point. In any case, you've heard incorrectly. An established club with a long term favorable claims history that doesn't own a twin CAN get insurance on one, but it costs big bucks. In general, rental insurance on a twin costs big bucks. The reason is simple - someone who doesn't fly a twin a lot is a hazard in one. My insurer won't even quote you if you don't have 80 hours twin time in the past year. Quote: I've also heard it's getting much much harder for single owners to get insurance for a twin unless they owned it a few years ago. Once again, not true. You can get insurance, but if you're not qualified you can expect to pay through the nose. If you're multi/instrument rated and current, it's no big deal. Michael Back to top Tom S. Guest Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? "Mike Rapoport" <rapoportnospam (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote Quote: If the stock market continues to perform well, premiums should come down. Since insurance companies collect premiums now and plan to pay claims in the future, the rate of return on the invested premiums is a critical part of the calculation of how much those premius should be in the first place. Mike MU-2 When policy holders are held liable for occurrences beyond their control and damages that are hideous, there's only one way for the insurance companies to make it up. See my other post about our totally nutbar tort system. Back to top Mike Rapoport Guest Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: Light Twins. How soft??? True, but that is not going to change anytime soon. I was interested to read that most of the profit from the Comstock silver strike in the 1860's was consumed in litigation over who owned the claims. Americans willingness to use the courts to secure "fair" settlements goes back a long way. Mike MU-2 "Tom S." <toms525 (AT) qwest (DOT) net> wrote Quote: "Mike Rapoport" <rapoportnospam (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote in message news:_0Kwb.13298$sb4.3413 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.pas.earthlink.net... If the stock market continues to perform well, premiums should come down. Since insurance companies collect premiums now and plan to pay claims in the future, the rate of return on the invested premiums is a critical part of the calculation of how much those premius should be in the first place. Mike MU-2 When policy holders are held liable for occurrences beyond their control and damages that are hideous, there's only one way for the insurance companies to make it up. See my other post about our totally nutbar tort system. 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