Aviation Forums Forum Index Aviation Forums
Aviation discussions newsgroups
 
Archives   FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Aviation Forums Forum Index -> Aviators (General Discussions)
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Just go look it up!
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote



On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:27:00 -0600, DannyDot <DannyDot (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
wrote:

Quote:
a wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:21 pm, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Musicrab writes:

snip

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

In my F-4 it did not. But that was back in the mid 80s with an analog
autopilot.

Also, can some explain what retard is?

They must have been doing an autoland if the radio altimeter was
involved. It feeds the autopilots AGL for calculating when to reduce
thrust and begin the flare. Otherwise it would have just been
following the NAV inputs for GS and LOC down to whenever the airline
SOP dictated disconnection of AP/AT for a hand-flown landing.

IIUC, "retard" is a callout in an Airbus for idle thrust. Never flown
one so no idea.

Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote



Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
Quote:
Robert M. Gary writes:

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs?

RAs. One of them had malfunctioned on several previous flights, according to
the flight data recorders. The airline had not bothered to fix it, even
though it is essential for autoland (perhaps the airline expected its pilots
to be alert and hard-working enough to fly landings by hand, although that's
not really an excuse).

Babble.

Where is your data on airline SOP with regard to doing an autoland all
the way to the ground?

Where is your data on the percentage of landings that do an autoland
all the way to the ground?


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Back to top
Maxwell
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:r1b0r4pgv4g7gg34p0mm288njs73266lcb (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
Quote:
jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com writes:

Where is your data on airline SOP with regard to doing an autoland all
the way to the ground?

Every autoland is all the way to the ground.

Only when flying a desk, moron. The real world is quite different.
Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
Quote:
jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com writes:

Where is your data on airline SOP with regard to doing an autoland all
the way to the ground?

Every autoland is all the way to the ground.

Where in the world did you come up with that rediculous statement?

What percentage of landings are done with autoland and what is your
source of information?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Back to top
Mxsmanic
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com writes:

Quote:
Where is your data on airline SOP with regard to doing an autoland all
the way to the ground?

Every autoland is all the way to the ground.
Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

On Mar 4, 8:21ápm, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:

Turkish Airlines has the worst safety record of all airlines in Europe and the
U.S. combined, in terms of flights with fatalities over total flights. áAnd it
trails by quite a margin.

Wrong.
Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
Quote:
jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com writes:

Where in the world did you come up with that rediculous statement?

If the autopilot isn't taking the aircraft to touchdown, it's not an autoland.
That's what autoland means: automatic landing. No control inputs required.
Autopilot engaged all the way up to touchdown and beyond.

Yeah, right.

The word "autoland" refers to a system in aircraft.

If you are going to post to real aviation groups, learn the language
of real aviation.

It is routine to turn on autoland during approach and turn it off just
before touchdown.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Back to top
Mxsmanic
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com writes:

Quote:
Where in the world did you come up with that rediculous statement?

If the autopilot isn't taking the aircraft to touchdown, it's not an autoland.
That's what autoland means: automatic landing. No control inputs required.
Autopilot engaged all the way up to touchdown and beyond.
Back to top
Dave Doe
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

In article <Xns9BC6B1ADFF503Rmoore16tampabayrrco (AT) 69 (DOT) 16.185.250>,
Rmoore16 (AT) tampabay (DOT) rr.com says...
Quote:
jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote
The word "autoland" refers to a system in aircraft.
It is routine to turn on autoland during approach and turn it off just
before touchdown.

That's not how we did it in the B-727s that I flew at PanAm.
Autoland was a procedure during which the autopilot flew the
aircraft to touchdown.

Bob Moore
ATP B-727 B-707 L-188
CFII

It was suggested (stated I spose) by another poster here that "most"
landings are autolands. I categorically disagreed with that statement.

Air New Zealand do about 1 in 7 autolands.

What ratio did you do?

--
Duncan
Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

Robert Moore <Rmoore16 (AT) tampabay (DOT) rr.com> wrote:
Quote:
jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote
The word "autoland" refers to a system in aircraft.
It is routine to turn on autoland during approach and turn it off just
before touchdown.

That's not how we did it in the B-727s that I flew at PanAm.
Autoland was a procedure during which the autopilot flew the
aircraft to touchdown.

The shuttle does an autoland approach and touches down manually.

And yes, "autoland" can refer to a procedure or a system.

The whole point is, contrary to MX's claim, not EVERY approach that
starts as "autoland" (however you want to define it) ends with the
A/C on the ground for EVERY airplane.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Back to top
Guest






PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

Robert Moore <Rmoore16 (AT) tampabay (DOT) rr.com> wrote:
Quote:
jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote
The shuttle does an autoland approach and touches down manually.

Not according to Wikipedia.....

Well, according to NASA, it does:

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/mission_profile.html

http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/nasafact/landingaids.htm

http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/release/1992/1-92.htm


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Back to top
Robert Moore
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote
Quote:
The shuttle does an autoland approach and touches down manually.

Not according to Wikipedia.....

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In aviation, autoland describes a system that fully automates the landing
phase of an aircraft's flight, with the human crew merely supervising the
process.

With 25 years of airline experience flying Boeing jetliners, I would
suggest that I know more about "autoland" operations and equipment than
either you or MX.

More from Wikipedia.....

Autoland requires the use of a radio altimeter to determine the aircraft's
height above the ground very precisely so as to initiate the landing flare
at the correct height (usually about 50 feet).
Autoland is highly accurate, and it lands the plane at the same spot on the
runway every time with very high accuracy. This is in contrast to manual
landings, where touch down points are relatively widely distributed within
the Touch Down Zone on the runway.

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)
Back to top
Robert Moore
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

Dave Doe <hard (AT) work (DOT) ok> wrote
Quote:
It was suggested (stated I spose) by another poster here that "most"
landings are autolands. I categorically disagreed with that statement.

Air New Zealand do about 1 in 7 autolands.

What ratio did you do?


Probably about 1 in 20. The company would have liked more, but that
took all of the fun out of flying. :)

Bob Moore
Back to top
Robert Moore
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote
Quote:
The word "autoland" refers to a system in aircraft.
It is routine to turn on autoland during approach and turn it off just
before touchdown.

That's not how we did it in the B-727s that I flew at PanAm.
Autoland was a procedure during which the autopilot flew the
aircraft to touchdown.

Bob Moore
ATP B-727 B-707 L-188
CFII
Back to top
Just go look it up!
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash Reply with quote

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:49:41 GMT, Robert Moore
<Rmoore16 (AT) tampabay (DOT) rr.com> wrote:

Quote:
jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote
The shuttle does an autoland approach and touches down manually.

Not according to Wikipedia.....

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In aviation, autoland describes a system that fully automates the landing
phase of an aircraft's flight, with the human crew merely supervising the
process.

With 25 years of airline experience flying Boeing jetliners, I would
suggest that I know more about "autoland" operations and equipment than
either you or MX.

More from Wikipedia.....

Autoland requires the use of a radio altimeter to determine the aircraft's
height above the ground very precisely so as to initiate the landing flare
at the correct height (usually about 50 feet).
Autoland is highly accurate, and it lands the plane at the same spot on the
runway every time with very high accuracy. This is in contrast to manual
landings, where touch down points are relatively widely distributed within
the Touch Down Zone on the runway.

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

the problem here seems to be the inappropriate substitution of
"coupled approach" with "autoland" by certain people.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Aviation Forums Forum Index -> Aviators (General Discussions) All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB