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RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU
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The Raven
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:05 am    Post subject: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote



Thursday, 19 February 2009

016/2009

RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU

The Minister for Defence, the Hon. Joel Fitzgibbon MP, today announced the
Government has accepted the reality that it will be necessary to bring
forward the retirement of Australia's remaining thirteen DHC-4 Caribou
aircraft to December 2009.

"The Government has been left with little choice but to retire the Caribou
and has reluctantly agreed to do so despite the fact that poor planning by
the former Government has denied us the opportunity to produce a replacement
aircraft before 2013," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

"After 45 years of tireless and distinguished service with the Royal
Australian Air Force, the Caribou fleet is suffering badly from a range of
ageing aircraft issues, and contains asbestos parts which I am determined to
weed out of the Defence Force."

The Royal Australian Air Force took delivery of its first Caribou in April
1964. The Caribou has a proud 45-year history of supporting Australian
Defence Force operations, throughout the South West Pacific and in South
East Asia, including active service in Vietnam, humanitarian relief in
Kashmir, Cambodia and Papua New Guinea and also in support of peacekeeping
operations in the Solomon Islands and East Timor.

Despite its outstanding track record, the Caribou is now well beyond its
sustainable life of type. The Caribou fleet suffers from corrosion, fatigue
and obsolescence issues that make them increasingly difficult and costly to
maintain.

"Air Force is struggling to achieve four to five serviceable aircraft at any
one time," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

"In fact, it is a tribute to the outstanding work of 38 Squadron aircrew,
technicians and support personnel that the Caribou has been able to operate
as long as it has.

"The reality is that a decision should have been taken a long time ago on
acquiring a tactical airlift capability to replace the Caribou. The
Government has been left with no other option than to rectify yet another
shortcoming we have inherited in transition planning across our entire Air
Force fleet," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

Project Air 8000 Phase 2 plans to deliver a Tactical Battlefield Airlift
capability for the Royal Australian Air Force to replace the Caribou in
2013.

"Options for bringing forward the schedule on this project are being
considered as part of the White Paper process," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

As an interim measure, a leased fleet of five additional Hawker Pacific B300
King Air aircraft will undertake light air transport tasks. These aircraft
will be phased into the Townsville-based 38 Squadron as the Caribou is
progressively retired toward the end of 2009. Three King Air 350 aircraft,
currently operated by Army, will also be transferred across to 38 Squadron.

"The interim King Air lease will help Air Force minimise the adverse
workforce issues that result from allowing gaps to develop in transitioning
aircraft fleets," Mr Fitzgibbon said.

"It is important that we honour the debt of gratitude we owe to the men and
women who have supported the Caribou for so long by providing a means for
them to maintain their skills and streamline their transition to a more
modern and capable replacement aircraft."

The King Air is a modern aircraft with digital avionics, advanced displays
and navigation systems and turbine engines, that will assist in
transitioning 38 Squadron aircrew and technicians to the more modern
aircraft types being considered under Project Air 8000 Phase 2.

"Our nation is extremely proud of the magnificent service that the Caribou
has provided to the Royal Australian Air Force over the past five decades.
While there may be some who are saddened to hear of the Caribou's impending
retirement, even the most vocal supporters of the Caribou will agree this
decision is long overdue."

"The men and women of 38 Squadron have been waiting for many years to know
what the future holds. Today's decision gives reassurance to them that the
Government is very aware of both the challenges they face in trying to
sustain such an ageing aircraft and the career management uncertainty that
has been unnecessarily forced upon them after so many years of empty
promises and inaction," Mr Fitzgibbon said.



Media contacts:

Jack Smith (Joel Fitzgibbon): 02 6277 7800 or 0408 116 423

Defence Media Liaison: 02 6265 3343 or 0408 498 664

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Sunny
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote



"The Raven" <swilson150 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote in message
news:499ce8c6$0$7377$afc38c87 (AT) news (DOT) optusnet.com.au...
| Thursday, 19 February 2009
|
| 016/2009
|
| RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU
| As an interim measure, a leased fleet of five additional Hawker Pacific
B300
| King Air aircraft will undertake light air transport tasks. These
aircraft
| will be phased into the Townsville-based 38 Squadron as the Caribou is
| progressively retired toward the end of 2009. Three King Air 350
aircraft,
| currently operated by Army, will also be transferred across to 38
Squadron.

Great replace the Caribou (for 4 years) with an aircraft type that cannot
do the job.
(Why not just buy The C-27J and be done with it)
Instead of a toy executive a/c.
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ventus45
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

On Feb 19, 10:12ápm, Michael <michael.k.he...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:44:40 +0000, Sunny wrote:
Great replace the Caribou (for 4 years) with an aircraft type that
cannot do the job.

That thought occurred to me also. Although, I suppose, there is a
precedent for replacing one type with another type with completely
different qualities: F-111 -> F/A-18F.

I'm sure there's logic in there somewhere. I just can't see it.

There is no tactical aircraft in production, or foreseable, that can
replace the Bou, one on one, mission for mission.

If you look at other ways to perform a range of Bou tasks, (does
anyone still remember the real reason why we bought the F-111 in the
first place) there are options, but none anywhere near as efficient,
and they require a collective range of hardware that are far more
expensive individually, let alone collectively, and are,
realistically, just basically unavailable.
The grunts will not really appreciate the Bou until they don't have
it.
The only realistically acheivable way to replace half of what the Bou
does best, is to get a few thousand large cargo parachutes, and push
the stuff out the back ramp of a Herc.
The other half, uplift from small rough fields, doesn't have an
effective answer, dozens of choppers not withstandng.
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Michael
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:44:40 +0000, Sunny wrote:

Quote:
Great replace the Caribou (for 4 years) with an aircraft type that
cannot do the job.

That thought occurred to me also. Although, I suppose, there is a
precedent for replacing one type with another type with completely
different qualities: F-111 -> F/A-18F.

I'm sure there's logic in there somewhere. I just can't see it.
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The Raven
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

"Sunny" <wombatlodge (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:cl6nl.21959$cu.19840@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Quote:

"The Raven" <swilson150 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote in message
news:499ce8c6$0$7377$afc38c87 (AT) news (DOT) optusnet.com.au...
| Thursday, 19 February 2009
|
| 016/2009
|
| RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU
| As an interim measure, a leased fleet of five additional Hawker Pacific
B300
| King Air aircraft will undertake light air transport tasks. These
aircraft
| will be phased into the Townsville-based 38 Squadron as the Caribou is
| progressively retired toward the end of 2009. Three King Air 350
aircraft,
| currently operated by Army, will also be transferred across to 38
Squadron.

Great replace the Caribou (for 4 years) with an aircraft type that cannot
do the job.
(Why not just buy The C-27J and be done with it)
Instead of a toy executive a/c.


LTAC program got delayed/killed back in the Beazley days. Governement never
re-initiated it.

The options available then haven't changed significantly, although CASA has
an upgraded aircraft now (295?). Spartan is an option but I thought there
were some minor interoperability issues with cargo handling (not sure
though). The other options still haven't flown, 10 years after the original
LTAC program.

I just hope the Caribous remain flying in civilian roles...within Australia
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GrassyNoel
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

I take it, remanufacturing them with turbine engines has been
considered and rejected ...
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ventus45
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

On Feb 20, 2:09ápm, Matt Richards <m...@idontlikespam.com> wrote:
V-22?
Matt.


No Matt, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, even with a condom on
it, make that ten condoms.

The V-22 is a prohibitively expensive, complicated and unreliable
design looking for a mission.

It doesn't do anything more than a chook can do, except go a few KIAS
faster and a few Nm further, at substantial cost penalty, not to
mention safety, reliability etc.

OK, it will be developed in time, and it may eventually become a
viable chook replacement, but never a Bou replacement.

The reason why there is no Bou replacement, is that everyone in fairy
land wants what they think is needed, or are just plain biased or
blinkered to begin with, or, more likely, have another agenda.

All the requirements were written to include, top of the line
technology, pressurisation, high speed, long range, oh, and
incidently, it can land on dirt - right ?

They only really paid lip service to the real needs. What about take
off on dirt - with a load ? So many people didn't have a clue.

When I was in the system, years ago, I was on a course, one of those
purple seminar things, waste of time mostly, but the boss said go for
the two days, so I did.

The guy running the course knew the Bou issue was in the air at the
time, and since this was a purple class with a few civies (me one of
three) he threw it in the mix.

There was much knowledgeable argument for a while between an Army
Major and a RAAF Wing Commander.
It was entertaining.
But then one bloke actually said -
"But, it only delivers supplies - it goes out empty to get another
load - doesn't it ?"
I gave up at that point.

People loose sight of reality.
Both Civil Remote and Mil Batlefield Tacticl Airlift require aircraft
that are capable, simple, relaible, and rugged.
Those four are the primary requirements.
Forget the rest of the crap.
The facts are, that fancy tech stuff just simply does not cut it in
the real bush, or battle field reality.

None of the tender study proposals for the Bou replacement over the
last ten years have come anywhere near meeting all of those criteria
in one airframe, and for my money, never will.

Ask yourself a simple question.
Why are there so many Beavers, Otters and Twotters out there, all over
the world, even today, and likely to still be there for another 20
years ?

Answer. Simple. Reality Bites.
Beauty is as beauty does.
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Matt Richards
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

On 19/02/2009 10:34 PM, ventus45 wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 19, 10:12 pm, Michael<michael.k.he...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:44:40 +0000, Sunny wrote:
Great replace the Caribou (for 4 years) with an aircraft type that
cannot do the job.
That thought occurred to me also. Although, I suppose, there is a
precedent for replacing one type with another type with completely
different qualities: F-111 -> F/A-18F.

I'm sure there's logic in there somewhere. I just can't see it.

There is no tactical aircraft in production, or foreseable, that can
replace the Bou, one on one, mission for mission.

V-22?

Matt.
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Atheist Chaplain
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

"GrassyNoel" <geracen (AT) iinet (DOT) net.au> wrote in message
news:0137928d-cfd3-4db0-a227-34989f605207 (AT) r37g2000prr (DOT) googlegroups.com...
Quote:
I take it, remanufacturing them with turbine engines has been
considered and rejected ...

I don't think it is an engine issue but more an airframe fatigue issue, 40
years of hard graft will take it out of anyone.
I for one will miss the bou, I used its Taxi services on a few occasions :-)

--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ." Gandhi
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JimK
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

"GrassyNoel" <geracen (AT) iinet (DOT) net.au> wrote in message
news:0137928d-cfd3-4db0-a227-34989f605207 (AT) r37g2000prr (DOT) googlegroups.com...
Quote:
I take it, remanufacturing them with turbine engines has been
considered and rejected ...

They call them Buffalos

In December 2008 Viking Air, who hold the type certificate for the Buffalo,
indicated that they intend to put the Buffalo back into production at their
factory in Victoria, British Columbia or Calgary, Alberta. The new
production Buffalo will feature Pratt & Whitney Canada PW150 engines, a
glass cockpit, enhanced vision and night vision goggle capability. The
company intends to propose the aircraft as a replacement for the Canadian
Forces fleet of existing DHC-5As
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The Raven
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

"Atheist Chaplain" <abused (AT) cia (DOT) gov> wrote in message
news:499e286b (AT) news (DOT) x-privat.org...
Quote:
"GrassyNoel" <geracen (AT) iinet (DOT) net.au> wrote in message
news:0137928d-cfd3-4db0-a227-34989f605207 (AT) r37g2000prr (DOT) googlegroups.com...
I take it, remanufacturing them with turbine engines has been
considered and rejected ...

I don't think it is an engine issue but more an airframe fatigue issue, 40
years of hard graft will take it out of anyone.

It's actually more to do with the engines, although the airframe is
obviously getting on....

Quote:
I for one will miss the bou, I used its Taxi services on a few occasions
:-)


Hopefully they'll keep flying.
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The Raven
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

"JimK" <Rocketmail> wrote in message news:499e4d39$1 (AT) dnews (DOT) tpgi.com.au...
Quote:

"GrassyNoel" <geracen (AT) iinet (DOT) net.au> wrote in message
news:0137928d-cfd3-4db0-a227-34989f605207 (AT) r37g2000prr (DOT) googlegroups.com...
I take it, remanufacturing them with turbine engines has been
considered and rejected ...

They call them Buffalos

In December 2008 Viking Air, who hold the type certificate for the
Buffalo, indicated that they intend to put the Buffalo back into
production at their factory in Victoria, British Columbia or Calgary,
Alberta. The new production Buffalo will feature Pratt & Whitney Canada
PW150 engines, a glass cockpit, enhanced vision and night vision goggle
capability. The company intends to propose the aircraft as a replacement
for the Canadian Forces fleet of existing DHC-5As


Missed JimK's reply but, the rejection of the turbine refit flew in the face
of all the analysis done.

They were offered two free conversion kits some years ago. 40hours to fit,
paid for themselves in the 1st year of operation, flew higher, flew faster,
flew with heavier loads. Whether you wanted to combine the last three
benefits is the question.....but if you treated the aircraft the same it
would have been an excellent option.

No rational explanation ever given as to why they wouldn't look at the
various turbine kits available (such as the free DHC kits offered).

All public information in the relevant defence releases and trade mags.
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Kwyjibo
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

GrassyNoel wrote:
Quote:
I take it, remanufacturing them with turbine engines has been
considered and rejected ...

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Turbo-Caribou-July-05.pdf



--
Kwyj.
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Atheist Chaplain
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

"The Raven" <swilson150 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote in message
news:499e840a$0$7704$afc38c87 (AT) news (DOT) optusnet.com.au...
Quote:
"Atheist Chaplain" <abused (AT) cia (DOT) gov> wrote in message
news:499e286b (AT) news (DOT) x-privat.org...
"GrassyNoel" <geracen (AT) iinet (DOT) net.au> wrote in message
news:0137928d-cfd3-4db0-a227-34989f605207 (AT) r37g2000prr (DOT) googlegroups.com...
I take it, remanufacturing them with turbine engines has been
considered and rejected ...

I don't think it is an engine issue but more an airframe fatigue issue,
40 years of hard graft will take it out of anyone.

It's actually more to do with the engines, although the airframe is
obviously getting on....


Thanks :-)

Quote:
I for one will miss the bou, I used its Taxi services on a few occasions
:-)


Hopefully they'll keep flying.

fingers crossed



--
[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Church of
Scientology International]
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your
Christ." Gandhi
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Spartan613
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU Reply with quote

"Sunny" <wombatlodge (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:cl6nl.21959$cu.19840@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Quote:

"The Raven" <swilson150 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote in message
news:499ce8c6$0$7377$afc38c87 (AT) news (DOT) optusnet.com.au...
| Thursday, 19 February 2009
|
| 016/2009
|
| RETIREMENT OF THE DHC-4 CARIBOU
| As an interim measure, a leased fleet of five additional Hawker Pacific
B300
| King Air aircraft will undertake light air transport tasks. These
aircraft
| will be phased into the Townsville-based 38 Squadron as the Caribou is
| progressively retired toward the end of 2009. Three King Air 350
aircraft,
| currently operated by Army, will also be transferred across to 38
Squadron.

Great replace the Caribou (for 4 years) with an aircraft type that cannot
do the job.
(Why not just buy The C-27J and be done with it)
Instead of a toy executive a/c.


They have to wait for the White Paper first.

It might propose more Chinooks for the Army, or Ospreys for a Joint unit. Or
a mix of C27s and AC27s.

Time will tell.

--
"Those who beat their swords into ploughshares will plough for those who
didn't".
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