AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Would you by this engine?          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Owning Airplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Greg Copeland Guest Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:22 am    Post subject: Would you by this engine? I've been shopping for a plane for a while. I'm hoping I found the one but the engine has given me pause. The engine is 17-years old. It has ~700 hours on it. The average per year is only 49hr/year. Two years during that 17, the plane did not fly and I'm guessing it was not pickled. The latest it sat was in 2000. During the last 6 years, the plane has mostly flown some 32hrs/year on average. The engine is a Ly IO-360-A1A. Compression on the engine is 74, 76, 74, 76. The owner refuses to negotiate on the basis of these concerns and leaves me nothing to mitigate some of the potential risk. I spoke with a local mechanic today and his opinion is that it should give pause but the engine may be fine and was seemingly encouraged by the compression numbers. He recommends an oil analysis. His opinion is the biggest potential unseen danger stems from the cam and an oil analysis would address this concern one way or the other. Comments? Would you consider such a deal? The mechanic's advice seem sound? Greg Back to top Newps Guest Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? It's a Lycoming, compression is always good. You need to check the cam. Lyc's lose their cams without use. Greg Copeland wrote: Quote: I've been shopping for a plane for a while. I'm hoping I found the one but the engine has given me pause. The engine is 17-years old. It has ~700 hours on it. The average per year is only 49hr/year. Two years during that 17, the plane did not fly and I'm guessing it was not pickled. The latest it sat was in 2000. During the last 6 years, the plane has mostly flown some 32hrs/year on average. The engine is a Ly IO-360-A1A. Compression on the engine is 74, 76, 74, 76. The owner refuses to negotiate on the basis of these concerns and leaves me nothing to mitigate some of the potential risk. I spoke with a local mechanic today and his opinion is that it should give pause but the engine may be fine and was seemingly encouraged by the compression numbers. He recommends an oil analysis. His opinion is the biggest potential unseen danger stems from the cam and an oil analysis would address this concern one way or the other. Comments? Would you consider such a deal? The mechanic's advice seem sound? Greg Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? On 5/18/2007 8:22:50 PM, Greg Copeland wrote: Quote: The owner refuses to negotiate on the basis of these concerns and leaves me nothing to mitigate some of the potential risk. With the glut of aircraft on the market I would suspect you will find a much less risky purchase. From what I have learned over the last six years as a single engine aircraft owner, I would walk away from this sale without a second thought. You have every right to be concerned about an engine that has seen such little use over such a long period of time. -- Peter Back to top John Galban Guest Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? On May 18, 5:22 pm, Greg Copeland <gtcopel...@gmail.com> wrote: Quote: I spoke with a local mechanic today and his opinion is that it should give pause but the engine may be fine and was seemingly encouraged by the compression numbers. He recommends an oil analysis. His opinion is the biggest potential unseen danger stems from the cam and an oil analysis would address this concern one way or the other. Comments? Would you consider such a deal? The mechanic's advice seem sound? Oil analysis is a trend tool. Even the folks that sell the service will tell you that. A single oil analysis won't tell you much unless the engine is shedding a prodigious amount of metal (which you should be able to see by cutting open the oil filter). On Lycs that don't get much use, I'd pull a cylinder or two and inspect the cam directly. I know too many people that have bought underused engines that looked good at inspection, only to have the results of internal corrosion start showing up after they started flying it regularly. Personally, with the airplane market heavily favoring the buyer these days, I'd look elsewhere. This engine might be quite servicable, but the seller is asking you to stake your money that it is. There's no down side for him. John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180) Back to top Ron Rosenfeld Guest Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? On 18 May 2007 17:22:54 -0700, Greg Copeland <gtcopeland (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I've been shopping for a plane for a while. I'm hoping I found the one but the engine has given me pause. The engine is 17-years old. It has ~700 hours on it. The average per year is only 49hr/year. Two years during that 17, the plane did not fly and I'm guessing it was not pickled. The latest it sat was in 2000. During the last 6 years, the plane has mostly flown some 32hrs/year on average. The engine is a Ly IO-360-A1A. Compression on the engine is 74, 76, 74, 76. The owner refuses to negotiate on the basis of these concerns and leaves me nothing to mitigate some of the potential risk. I spoke with a local mechanic today and his opinion is that it should give pause but the engine may be fine and was seemingly encouraged by the compression numbers. He recommends an oil analysis. His opinion is the biggest potential unseen danger stems from the cam and an oil analysis would address this concern one way or the other. Comments? Would you consider such a deal? The mechanic's advice seem sound? Greg This really falls into the area of negotiating strategy rather than "would you buy this engine". In your position, I would figure out how much *I* thought the plane might be worth assuming the engine will require a complete overhaul, including accessories, fuel and oil lines, mounts, cooler overhaul, etc. Possibly a prop overhaul also? Or maybe the Hartzell prop hub needs to be replaced because of the new A/D? Then I would inform the seller how much I would be willing to pay for his aircraft. I would not necessarily go into any details as to how I arrived at that figure, although I might depending on the specifics of what happened next. It is the seller's right to ask whatever he wants for his airplane, and it is my right to not pay any more than I want to. But, if you run the numbers, you might discover that his asking price is such that you can live with it, even with overhauling the engine right after purchase. So far as oil analysis being able to predict whether a new cam will be required in the next 25 hours or so -- it won't. And I've flown behind a Lyc IO360A1A for the past 30 years or so, and gone through several camshafts during that time! FWIW, Lycoming recommends overhaul of that engine at 12 years, if it has not met the flight time limits. Of course, under Part 91 non-commercial flying, it is perfectly *legal* to overhaul "on-condition". But I would only purchase that aircraft assuming I was going to do a firewall forward overhaul soon after. I would not rely on the "local mechanic's" opinion to conclude that the engine will not require an overhaul in the near future. (Unless he's willing to give you a warranty, and you think you can enforce it, of course). Good Luck! --ron Back to top Orval Fairbairn Guest Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? In article <1179534174.332558.58910 (AT) n59g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Greg Copeland <gtcopeland (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I've been shopping for a plane for a while. I'm hoping I found the one but the engine has given me pause. The engine is 17-years old. It has ~700 hours on it. The average per year is only 49hr/year. Two years during that 17, the plane did not fly and I'm guessing it was not pickled. The latest it sat was in 2000. During the last 6 years, the plane has mostly flown some 32hrs/year on average. The engine is a Ly IO-360-A1A. Compression on the engine is 74, 76, 74, 76. The owner refuses to negotiate on the basis of these concerns and leaves me nothing to mitigate some of the potential risk. I spoke with a local mechanic today and his opinion is that it should give pause but the engine may be fine and was seemingly encouraged by the compression numbers. He recommends an oil analysis. His opinion is the biggest potential unseen danger stems from the cam and an oil analysis would address this concern one way or the other. Comments? Would you consider such a deal? The mechanic's advice seem sound? Greg I would assume that the engine should be torn down and overhauled. Lycomings, especially, suffer from #1 and #2 cam erosion, due to condensation in the upper front of the crankcase. Oil analysis may or may not spot a problem here. Cylinders may be pitted due to condensation/atmospheric pumping. Some Hartzell propellers have a mandatory 5 year inspection cycle. If the plane has sat outside, airframe components may suffer from corrosion. Paint may need replacement. Back to top Bob Noel Guest Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? In article <1179534174.332558.58910 (AT) n59g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com>, Greg Copeland <gtcopeland (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I've been shopping for a plane for a while. I'm hoping I found the one but the engine has given me pause. The engine is 17-years old. It has ~700 hours on it. [snip] The owner refuses to negotiate on the basis of these concerns and leaves me nothing to mitigate some of the potential risk. [snip] Comments? Would you consider such a deal? The mechanic's advice seem sound? I wouldn't buy this airplane unless it was priced as a runout engine AND I wanted a runout. But it sounds like the owner doesn't want to appropriately acknowledge the time since overhaul. Unless you are looking for a rare bird, patience will be rewarded. A friend of mine spent almost three years looking for a cherokee 180 and found a real beauty. It had the original engine and some 1700 TTSN. IOW it was WAAAY beyond calendar TBO. He got about 5 years before he had to overhaul it. And now he has a very low time 180 with a low time engine. Anyway. Good luck -- Bob Noel (goodness, please trim replies!!!) Back to top Ron Natalie Guest Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? Newps wrote: Quote: It's a Lycoming, compression is always good. You need to check the cam. Lyc's lose their cams without use. Believe me, the compressions were great on my engine up until the time the cylinder blew. As Newps says, you need to take a look inside. I'd particularly be worried about corrosion (cam and cyl) on an engine that flies infrequently. Back to top Roy Smith Guest Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? Orval Fairbairn <orfairbairn (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: Lycomings, especially, suffer from #1 and #2 cam erosion, due to condensation in the upper front of the crankcase. Curious. Why would you get more condensation in the upper front part of the crankcase than anywhere else? Back to top Orval Fairbairn Guest Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? In article <roy-57E691.09102120052007@032-325-625.area1.spcsdns.net>, Roy Smith <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Orval Fairbairn <orfairbairn (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: Lycomings, especially, suffer from #1 and #2 cam erosion, due to condensation in the upper front of the crankcase. Curious. Why would you get more condensation in the upper front part of the crankcase than anywhere else? That is the area where ventilation is least -- also, the highest point of the inside of the crankcase when the aircraft is at rest. Back to top Dave Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? And.... When preheating, the metal propeller is a HUGE heat radiator, keeps the front of the engine cooler than the rest, hence more condensation in that area.... Some get mittens for their props... :) Dave On Sun, 20 May 2007 14:00:11 GMT, Orval Fairbairn <orfairbairn (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: In article <roy-57E691.09102120052007@032-325-625.area1.spcsdns.net>, Roy Smith <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote: Orval Fairbairn <orfairbairn (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: Lycomings, especially, suffer from #1 and #2 cam erosion, due to condensation in the upper front of the crankcase. Curious. Why would you get more condensation in the upper front part of the crankcase than anywhere else? That is the area where ventilation is least -- also, the highest point of the inside of the crankcase when the aircraft is at rest. Back to top John Taylor Guest Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: Would you by this engine? Greg, You might mention what state or climate the plane has lived in, in terms of moisture and how the plane was flown, if you can ascertain that. I think the seller probably deserves more for his plane than a run-out- engine price, but less than if the hours went on more quickly. Maybe think in terms of valuing a 1400-hour engine. There are a lot of planes out there with 15+ y.o. engines. The earlier poster's advice is good: make your offer and see if there's a match. The only reason not to make an offer is if you feel that the engine's not safe without an overhaul first. In that case, buyer and seller probably won't agree on a price. If your mechanic can get a look at the cam, all the better. I probably wouldn't spend more than 1-2% of the plane value on a pre-purchase inspection, especially if you don't have a good agreement first. Good luck! -John Greg Copeland wrote: Quote: I've been shopping for a plane for a while. I'm hoping I found the one but the engine has given me pause. The engine is 17-years old. It has ~700 hours on it. The average per year is only 49hr/year. Two years during that 17, the plane did not fly and I'm guessing it was not pickled. The latest it sat was in 2000. During the last 6 years, the plane has mostly flown some 32hrs/year on average. The engine is a Ly IO-360-A1A. Compression on the engine is 74, 76, 74, 76. The owner refuses to negotiate on the basis of these concerns and leaves me nothing to mitigate some of the potential risk. I spoke with a local mechanic today and his opinion is that it should give pause but the engine may be fine and was seemingly encouraged by the compression numbers. He recommends an oil analysis. His opinion is the biggest potential unseen danger stems from the cam and an oil analysis would address this concern one way or the other. Comments? Would you consider such a deal? The mechanic's advice seem sound? Greg Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Owning Airplanes All times are GMT Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.