AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Climbing turns          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviation (Students) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Euan Kilgour Guest Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Climbing turns I'm trying to sort out in my mind the mechanics of a climbing turn. I understand that when rolling into any turn the upgoing wing creates drag which causes adverse yaw. Once established in a climbing turn, you are holding a small amount of opposite aileron to counter the tendancy to overbank. I was taught to also apply a small amount of opposite rudder as well in order to "maintain balance". Wouldn't adverse yaw be countered by opposite aileron alone? Does an aircraft in a climbing turn tend to slip rather than skid? Wouldn't opposite rudder just make this worse? Its really doing my head in. Back to top P S Guest Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Climbing turns On May 15, 6:53 pm, Euan Kilgour <av8bharri...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Quote: I'm trying to sort out in my mind the mechanics of a climbing turn. I understand that when rolling into any turn the upgoing wing creates drag which causes adverse yaw. Once established in a climbing turn, you are holding a small amount of opposite aileron to counter the tendancy to overbank. I was taught to also apply a small amount of opposite rudder as well in order to "maintain balance". Wouldn't adverse yaw be countered by opposite aileron alone? Does an aircraft in a climbing turn tend to slip rather than skid? Wouldn't opposite rudder just make this worse? Its really doing my head in. With a propeller turning to the right viewed from the cockpit.. On a straight take off climb, you always have to hold some right rudder, to counter the 3 well known forces pulling the nose to the left. On a climbing left turn however, instead of applying the left rudder, you apply right rudder but less than the amount used in a straight climb, because the ball would still be to the right without some right rudder. On a climbing right turn, you apply more right rudder. These only become significant if you become really smooth with the aileron and rudder. P S Back to top BT Guest Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Climbing turns Any turn, climbing or not. To lift the wing the aileron to the outside of the turn needs to be lower than the wing, it sticks down into the slip stream of air and "pulls" the wing back.. adverse yaw. Once in the turn, yes, a little "top stick" to counter the over banking tendency. Rudder needs to be applied in the same direction of the turn to counter the "adverse yaw", but only to balance the turn or adverse yaw. An aircraft should never slip or skid around a turn, climbing or otherwise. The "upgoing wing" in your terms, does not create the adverse yaw, the "down aileron" creates drag and causes the adverse yaw. Give me one hour with our "adverse yaw demonstrator aircraft" and you will learn what feet and rudder pedals are for. The demonstrator aircraft of choice is a Grob 103 glider with 60ft wing span and 1/3 of that is aileron. BT "Euan Kilgour" <av8bharrier2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote in message news:1179280384.386099.33050 (AT) e65g2000hsc (DOT) googlegroups.com... Quote: I'm trying to sort out in my mind the mechanics of a climbing turn. I understand that when rolling into any turn the upgoing wing creates drag which causes adverse yaw. Once established in a climbing turn, you are holding a small amount of opposite aileron to counter the tendancy to overbank. I was taught to also apply a small amount of opposite rudder as well in order to "maintain balance". Wouldn't adverse yaw be countered by opposite aileron alone? Does an aircraft in a climbing turn tend to slip rather than skid? Wouldn't opposite rudder just make this worse? Its really doing my head in. Back to top Brian Guest Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Climbing turns If I am not totally confused on this, I think it makes perfect sense to have slight amount of opposite rudder to go with the opposite aileron. When you Roll in to a Left Turn the Right Aileron is down increasing the angle of attack on the right wing and as result Drag on the Right wing. The Left Aileron does exactly the opposite. As a result when rolling in you need left Rudder to counteract the increased drag on the Right Wing and Decreased Drag on the left wing. (Adversion yaw) Once Established in the turn you need the Left Aileron down Slightly down (or in the case of a Schweizer 2-33 at low speed perhaps fully down) and the right aileron up to counter the overbanking tendancy. As a result you will need some right rudder to still counter the adverse yaw which is now in the opposite direction that it was when you were rolling into the turn. Hope that makes sense. I did notice the it seems to be the sailplane pilots that understand this best. Brian CFIIG/ASEL Back to top Don Byrer Guest Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: Climbing turns On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:10:13 -0700, "BT" <bNOtiz2 (AT) SPAM (DOT) cox.net> wrote: Quote: Give me one hour with our "adverse yaw demonstrator aircraft" and you will learn what feet and rudder pedals are for. The demonstrator aircraft of choice is a Grob 103 glider with 60ft wing span and 1/3 of that is aileron. Quote: "Euan Kilgour" <av8bharrier2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote in message news:1179280384.386099.33050 (AT) e65g2000hsc (DOT) googlegroups.com... I'm trying to sort out in my mind the mechanics of a climbing turn. Darn good question Euan!...as a techie guy I like to understand how "everything works". BT makes a good point. ..try a flight in ANY sailplane...you'll figure it out. I'm training in a Blanik L-13, a basic trainer...and my rudder skills have improved immensely. I've had one flight in a Grob 103, that's one slippery bird that likes coordination...and a blast to fly! ...and yes, you CAN make a climbing turn in a sailplane without a thermal...but watch your airspeed! --Don B Don Byrer KJ5KB Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy Glider & CFI wannabe kj5kb-at-hotmail.com "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..." "Watch out for those doves...<smack-smack-smack-smack...>" Back to top Don Byrer Guest Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Climbing turns Euan...this would be a good post for: rec.aviation.how.the.heck.do.these.things.fly.anyway.? :) --Don Don Byrer KJ5KB Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy Glider & CFI wannabe kj5kb-at-hotmail.com "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..." "Watch out for those doves...<smack-smack-smack-smack...>" Back to top Guest Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Climbing turns On May 15, 9:10 pm, "BT" <bNOt...@SPAM.cox.net> wrote: Quote: Any turn, climbing or not. To lift the wing the aileron to the outside of the turn needs to be lower than the wing, it sticks down into the slip stream of air and "pulls" the wing back.. adverse yaw. Once in the turn, yes, a little "top stick" to counter the over banking tendency. Rudder needs to be applied in the same direction of the turn to counter the "adverse yaw", but only to balance the turn or adverse yaw. An aircraft should never slip or skid around a turn, climbing or otherwise. The "upgoing wing" in your terms, does not create the adverse yaw, the "down aileron" creates drag and causes the adverse yaw. The upgoing wing makes the drag, not just the aileron. The down aileron increases both camber and angle of attack of that wing, and both of those factors create more drag over the entire wing section that has aileron. Once in the turn, the outside wing is going faster and generating more lift, so the airplane tends to bank further, requiring opposite aileron. The opposite aileron is not enough to eliminate the adverse yaw and so rudder into the turn is still necessary. In a climbing turn, the helices described by the wingtips are at different angles. The outside wing has a higher angle of attack and will stall first. In a descending turn, it's the inside wing with the higher AOA, and it's also travelling more slowly, making things more critical, especially if we throw a skid into the turn; a skid increases the AOA differential between the wings and almost guarantees a spin if we get slow enough. I built an AO demonstrator here awhile back. I need to post pictures of it somewhere. 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