AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Jim Carter Guest Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group: we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's. I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin? -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas Back to top Roy Smith Guest Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions In article <drI1i.2714$LR5.1778 (AT) newssvr17 (DOT) news.prodigy.net>, "Jim Carter" <jim.carter (AT) swbell (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group: we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's. I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin? My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes. Back to top Peter Clark Guest Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions On Sun, 13 May 2007 14:09:15 -0400, Roy Smith <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: In article <drI1i.2714$LR5.1778 (AT) newssvr17 (DOT) news.prodigy.net>, "Jim Carter" <jim.carter (AT) swbell (DOT) net> wrote: This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group: we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's. I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin? My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes. The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids. Back to top Jim Carter Guest Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions I thought I read that the 1000 uses the 400/500 series logic to drive it. If that's so, then I wonder why the macro to generate the flight plan isn't retrofitted to the earlier units. -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas "Peter Clark" <Invalidi (AT) NotIn (DOT) YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote in message news:r0ue43db0m78j3too94l9ugndg32ntdrp7 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... Quote: On Sun, 13 May 2007 14:09:15 -0400, Roy Smith <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote: In article <drI1i.2714$LR5.1778 (AT) newssvr17 (DOT) news.prodigy.net>, "Jim Carter" <jim.carter (AT) swbell (DOT) net> wrote: This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group: we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's. I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin? My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes. The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids. Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark <Inval...@NotIn.YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote: Quote: On Sun, 13 May 2007 14:09:15 -0400, Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote: In article <drI1i.2714$LR5.1...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net>, "Jim Carter" <jim.car...@swbell.net> wrote: This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group: we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's. I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin? My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes. The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4 points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would have seen on the right screen). Back to top Peter Clark Guest Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions On 14 May 2007 15:25:19 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark Inval...@NotIn.YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote: The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4 points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would have seen on the right screen). When you dial the range down sufficiently does your system not draw grids? Or are we talking about two different things? Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions On May 14, 3:39 pm, Peter Clark <Inval...@NotIn.YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote: Quote: On 14 May 2007 15:25:19 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" <N70...@gmail.com wrote: On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark Inval...@NotIn.YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote: The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4 points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would have seen on the right screen). When you dial the range down sufficiently does your system not draw grids? Or are we talking about two different things? It shows the same section grid lines that any G1000 does but it does not allow you to flight plan to a CAP named grid like our GX60 (with CAP database) did. -Robert Back to top Jim Carter Guest Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions The GX 50/60 series puts the grid lines on the quadrangle with WPTs at each turnpoint. Does the G1000 do the same? But back to any of the non-GX 50/60 class; does the aircrew just calculate and program in the WPTs by hand, or do they use the old pencil and chart method to layout the grid track? -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas "Peter Clark" <Invalidi (AT) NotIn (DOT) YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote in message news:56ph43tpvqt8iv0h4trpar3tdjg903etgq (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... Quote: On 14 May 2007 15:25:19 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com wrote: On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark Inval...@NotIn.YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote: The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4 points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would have seen on the right screen). When you dial the range down sufficiently does your system not draw grids? Or are we talking about two different things? Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions On May 15, 5:47 am, "Jim Carter" <jim.car...@swbell.net> wrote: Quote: The GX 50/60 series puts the grid lines on the quadrangle with WPTs at each turnpoint. Does the G1000 do the same? But back to any of the non-GX 50/60 class; does the aircrew just calculate and program in the WPTs by hand, or do they use the old pencil and chart method to layout the grid track? - Show quoted text - In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc. So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long. If he makes a mistake, its obvious on the screen. If he's lucky someone else has already searched that grid and the WPT is already there! . He then creates a flight plan that goes direct to one of the points and then goes through each point. That flight plan is stored in the FPL database for the pilot to pull up. We don't do much hand flying in the G1000 planes, the autopilots are pretty awesome. -Robert Back to top Jim Carter Guest Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions So do you fly anything except G1000s? If so, then how do you program in the grid tracks? Do you have a formula for calculating the grid-edge waypoints? -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas "Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1179252550.081204.203650 (AT) n59g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com... Quote: On May 15, 5:47 am, "Jim Carter" <jim.car...@swbell.net> wrote: The GX 50/60 series puts the grid lines on the quadrangle with WPTs at each turnpoint. Does the G1000 do the same? But back to any of the non-GX 50/60 class; does the aircrew just calculate and program in the WPTs by hand, or do they use the old pencil and chart method to layout the grid track? - Show quoted text - In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc. So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long. If he makes a mistake, its obvious on the screen. If he's lucky someone else has already searched that grid and the WPT is already there! . He then creates a flight plan that goes direct to one of the points and then goes through each point. That flight plan is stored in the FPL database for the pilot to pull up. We don't do much hand flying in the G1000 planes, the autopilots are pretty awesome. -Robert Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions On May 15, 12:22 pm, "Jim Carter" <jim.car...@swbell.net> wrote: Quote: So do you fly anything except G1000s? If so, then how do you program in the grid tracks? Do you have a formula for calculating the grid-edge waypoints? For CAP I only fly the G1000 (it's our squadron's only aircraft). However, any GPS should allow you to create WPTs by lat long (which is what we do). -Robert Back to top Matt Barrow Guest Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 3:56 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions "Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1179252550.081204.203650 (AT) n59g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com... Quote: In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc. So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long. Not by using the cursor to point and click? Quote: If he makes a mistake, its obvious on the screen. Maybe...maybe not. Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions On May 15, 3:56 pm, "Matt Barrow" <mbar...@performancehomes.com> wrote: Quote: "Robert M. Gary" <N70...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1179252550.081204.203650 (AT) n59g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com... In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc. So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long. Not by using the cursor to point and click? No. Its very difficult to get your bearings on a moving map for distant locations. A grid really doesn't have a good point of reference other than lat/long. I suppose if the grid was over something easily identifiable(like the Golden Gate), you could do it but otherwise its easier to just type in the lat/long off your gridded sectional chart. -Robert Back to top Chuck Gerlach Guest Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:32 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions The vast majority of CAP's 500+ aircraft fleet are not G1000 but the old round guage panels we all know and love, To the best of my knowledge all the fleet is equipted with GPSs. Since each was equipted with the latest and greatest panel when it was built, what's in each plane varies widely. What's taught at CAP's National Emergency Services Academy Mission Aircrew School is to plan your search on paper. The observer finds the lat/long of the entry and exit points. Since most search legs are on cardinal directions (N-S, E-W) these points define the search area, The pilot flys the airplane to a point several miles outside the search area on the extended first leg. Holding either the lat or long steady, the first leg is flown. Once out of the search area on the first leg the pilot makes approximately a standard rate 180 degree turn. That positions the plan one mile to the side and close to the lat or long of the next leg. With a little fine adjustment to the lat or long the search areaa is entered and the next leg flown, This process is repeated until the search area is covered. All that is needed is some way to see your current position's lat/long. And all the GPSs can display this. Very straight forward process. Back to top Jim Carter Guest Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: GNS430 vs. GX60 - missing functions Yes Chuck, I've been a rated mission pilot for years, but I'm not current. In our Wing, mission checkouts now include demonstration of integration of modern GPS technology into the search patterns. For example, I must demonstrate how to set the GX50/60 series that are in most CAP aircraft for Creeping Line, Parallel Track, and Expanding Square searches from an Initial Point. I must also demonstrate using the GPS to compute and display the standard grid search that you described. Unless the route of flight of the target aircraft is one of four compass headings (actually true headings) - North, South, East, or West - the search pattern used could easily not be aligned with latitudes and longitudes. Additionally, rather than fly several miles outside the pattern entry point, many mission pilots equate that fix similarly as we do a holding fix. We approach it via the most direct and expeditious route and then execute the proper "holding pattern entry" to align us with the inbound heading - essentially a 1/2 turn hold prior to entry into the grid. Most usually this contributes to more time in the search box and less in transit. My whole point in starting this thread was to determine if these SAR capabilities are peculiar to the Apollo GX50/60 series or should I have been able to find them in the Garmin 400/500 series. Apparently this feature is unique to Apollo, -- Jim Carter Rogers, Arkansas "Chuck Gerlach" <gerlach_c (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote in message news:dwM2i.9130$rO7.216 (AT) newssvr25 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... The vast majority of CAP's 500+ aircraft fleet are not G1000 but the old round guage panels we all know and love, To the best of my knowledge all the fleet is equipted with GPSs. Since each was equipted with the latest and greatest panel when it was built, what's in each plane varies widely. What's taught at CAP's National Emergency Services Academy Mission Aircrew School is to plan your search on paper. The observer finds the lat/long of the entry and exit points. Since most search legs are on cardinal directions (N-S, E-W) these points define the search area, The pilot flys the airplane to a point several miles outside the search area on the extended first leg. Holding either the lat or long steady, the first leg is flown. Once out of the search area on the first leg the pilot makes approximately a standard rate 180 degree turn. That positions the plan one mile to the side and close to the lat or long of the next leg. With a little fine adjustment to the lat or long the search areaa is entered and the next leg flown, This process is repeated until the search area is covered. All that is needed is some way to see your current position's lat/long. And all the GPSs can display this. Very straight forward process. 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