AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Transponders Above Class C Airspace Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Jim Vincent Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject: Transponders Above Class C Airspace A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C. I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace. A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly? Back to top Marc Ramsey Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace Jim Vincent wrote: Quote: A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly? I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required: (4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL Marc Back to top Marc Ramsey Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:46 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace Marc Ramsey wrote: Quote: Jim Vincent wrote: A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly? I think 91.215(b) makes it pretty clear that a transponder is required: (4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL I didn't fully qualify this, above 10,000 feet MSL a transponder is not required, even if you are within the lateral boundaries of B or C airspace... Marc Back to top BT Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders. The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER. Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to 9,000MSL. The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no transponder? BT "Jim Vincent" <gapagod (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote in message news:CsWdnQhmJLbUMKLbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... Quote: A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C. I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace. A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly? Back to top Papa3 Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:15 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace On May 7, 7:55 pm, "BT" <bNOt...@SPAM.cox.net> wrote: Quote: 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders. The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER. Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to 9,000MSL. The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no transponder? BT "Jim Vincent" <gapa...@aol.com> wrote in message news:CsWdnQhmJLbUMKLbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... A recent discussion on transponders in gliders brought up the issue of a transponder in Class C airspace. Recognizing that gliders are not required to have one since they don't have electrical systems, the issue was whether one is required if you are above towered airspace, such as Class C. I had been told second hand that a transponder is required within the lateral boundaries. A friend took the initiative and called the local FSDO for clarification. While a transponder is not required, it is a good idea, and it is an especially good idea to contact the tower well beforehand on the off chance of a descent in to the airspace. A quick survey: Since this aspect of the regs is somewhat open to interpretation, is your local FAA person telling you that a transponder is required? What is your personal policy and understanding of the reg? If the consensus is that a transponder is required, should associations such as the SSA for badges and the OLC ding accordingly?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I've overflown Allentown Class C airspace on several occasions without a transponder. I've spoken with both the FSDO and the Tower Boss, and their interpretation was that I can do this as long as I complied with the ATC Authorized Deviations bit which comes near the end of 91.215. In practice, this meant calling them up on the phone on the day of a planned record flight prior to takeoff. This was followed with a radio call while still a good 20 miles or so outside their airspace. On two occaisions, their "body english" on the radio was along the lines of "yeah.. whatever." On the third, the guy was all gung-ho and gave me traffic advisories every few minutes (to the point where it was almost embarassing). He wished me good luck after clearing their lateral boundaries and asked me to call in with results ! YMMV. P3 Back to top Marc Ramsey Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace BT wrote: Quote: 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders. The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER. Of course, there is a second "glider exemption" in 91.215: (5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider— (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and Quote: Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to 9,000MSL. The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no transponder? Reno Class C is surface to 8400 feet MSL, without transponders we routinely overfly it above 10,000 feet, but do not fly within the boundaries and below 10,000 feet (or below 8400 feet with a transponder) without permission from Reno tower. Of course, we are actively encouraging people to get transponders, not so much for overflights, but for the critical traffic areas outside of the boundaries of Class C... Marc Back to top John Scott Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace Our club is near a Class C airport. In fact there is a notch in the Class C airspace, so that it is not above our airport. The top of the Class C airspace is 10,200' MSL. We shouldn't need transponders because we are 1) exempt as gliders and 2) above 10,000 MSL when above the Class C. Is the suggestion here that we should contact Approach when we intend to overfly the Class C? John Scott Back to top Tuno Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace My experience mirrors P3's. Had a flight a few years ago where I had to overfly the El Paso Class C. Phone call the day before, radio contact 10 miles out and all the way across. They were very polite and helpful. I have a new glider coming in a few months and I'm really torn on whether to get a transponder ... my first glider didn't have one, my current one does, but I'm not satisfied it's worth the expense and power drain, which is a real concern on long flights ... by the current regs I do not have the option of leaving it turned off if I have battery power. 2NO Back to top BT Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace most interesting location.. what airport that the Class C is so high? Sounds like Colorado? Please let us know BT "John Scott" <soaring_pilot (AT) valleypine (DOT) net> wrote in message news:dMSdnQHXUePFX6LbnZ2dnUVZ_v6tnZ2d (AT) pcisys (DOT) net... Quote: Our club is near a Class C airport. In fact there is a notch in the Class C airspace, so that it is not above our airport. The top of the Class C airspace is 10,200' MSL. We shouldn't need transponders because we are 1) exempt as gliders and 2) above 10,000 MSL when above the Class C. Is the suggestion here that we should contact Approach when we intend to overfly the Class C? John Scott Back to top BT Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace ahh yes Mark... the above 10,000MSL exemption.. I kept my remarks to the "below 10KMSL" thinking BT "Marc Ramsey" <marc (AT) ranlog (DOT) comREMOVE> wrote in message news:KkP%h.1856$zj3.72 (AT) newssvr23 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... Quote: BT wrote: 91.215 (b)(4) states that all aircraft operating above Class B and C airspace up to 10,000MSL require transponders. The "glider exemption" described in 91.215(b)(3)(ii) states a glider (no factory electrical generation system) can operate without a transponder within 30nm of Class B airspace as long at they operate below the ceiling of Class B or Class C airspace or 10,000MSL WHICH EVER IS LOWER. Of course, there is a second "glider exemption" in 91.215: (5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider— (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and Most ClassB in the US go up to 10,000MSL, so that would be moot, but there are a few that do not, LAS for example. There is talk of lowering the PHX to 9,000MSL. The way 91.215(b)(iii) is worded, raises a question. There are many Class C airspace designations well outside the 30nm ModeC veil associated with Class B airspace. Can one legally fly above these Class C areas with no transponder? Reno Class C is surface to 8400 feet MSL, without transponders we routinely overfly it above 10,000 feet, but do not fly within the boundaries and below 10,000 feet (or below 8400 feet with a transponder) without permission from Reno tower. Of course, we are actively encouraging people to get transponders, not so much for overflights, but for the critical traffic areas outside of the boundaries of Class C... Marc Back to top Eric Greenwell Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace Tuno wrote: Quote: My experience mirrors P3's. Had a flight a few years ago where I had to overfly the El Paso Class C. Phone call the day before, radio contact 10 miles out and all the way across. They were very polite and helpful. I have a new glider coming in a few months and I'm really torn on whether to get a transponder ... my first glider didn't have one, my current one does, but I'm not satisfied it's worth the expense and power drain, which is a real concern on long flights ... by the current regs I do not have the option of leaving it turned off if I have battery power. I know the FAA doesn't expect you to leave your transponder on until you kill the battery, thereby losing the transponder AND your radio. If this is the only regulation you knowingly break, the FAA and your fellow pilots will think you are a saint! Better a transponder part of the time than no transponder at all. If the decision is really causing you heartburn, order the glider with a transponder antenna installed (it's a lot cheaper and easier that way), but no transponder. Put a Zaon MRX transponder detector or similar on top of the glare sheild when you get the glider. It does a good job of alerting a pilot to transponder equipped aircraft, and if you later decide you want that transponder after all, the MRX still continue to alert you, a job a transponder doesn't do. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org Back to top John Scott Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace Colorado Springs John Back to top Mike Schumann Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace If you run the transponder off of a seperate battery, you shouldn't have a problem if it runs dry and the transponder shuts down (unless you are in an area where a transponder is required). If I owned my own glider, a transponder would be close to the top of my priority list. (Murphy's law: If you have one, you won't need it). Mike Schumann "Tuno" <tedcwagner (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1178583911.921781.264440 (AT) h2g2000hsg (DOT) googlegroups.com... Quote: My experience mirrors P3's. Had a flight a few years ago where I had to overfly the El Paso Class C. Phone call the day before, radio contact 10 miles out and all the way across. They were very polite and helpful. I have a new glider coming in a few months and I'm really torn on whether to get a transponder ... my first glider didn't have one, my current one does, but I'm not satisfied it's worth the expense and power drain, which is a real concern on long flights ... by the current regs I do not have the option of leaving it turned off if I have battery power. 2NO -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Back to top CindyASK Guest Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace Gents: For those who are SSA members, you may log in to www.ssa.org, and use the link in the upper left corner to go to some artwork illustrating the FAR 91.215 airspace and requirements. Feel free to down load, print and post the pictures on a club house wall. You can also find it through Member News or the Government Liaison page. If it keeps folks from blundering, I will have done some good. And yes, you may always ask for permission for deviations from FARs, and done so knowledgeably, most ATC folks are willing to help, as much as they are able. Overflight of Class C has no communication requirement, but it does have an equipment requirement below 10,000 msl. And, "falling into the top" of Class C with little or no notice to ATC may be frowned upon. Personally, I had a tower supervisor tell me that I had no need for a waiver for a non-TXP glider for overflight of C below 10k. After I educated him gently, he said he couldn't be bothered to write a waiver, and just to not tell them I was there...... the job title doesn't assure that they understand regs beyond normal day-to-day uses. And for Eric G., as often as he and I agree, in this case I personally disagree. To avoid heartburn and grumpy FAA folks, install more battery capacity. If you are flying around Class A/B/C airspace, you wanted those systems for that access, so please supply them well. A glider pilot shouldn't plan to beg off on no electrons due to being "slower on course, so I didn't have enough amp hours." To me that smacks of "Oh poor me," rather than projecting responsible airmanship. I'm not throwing rocks at anyone, just looking at how we view our options. Cindy B Quote: P3, it was the Allentown airspace I was thinking of. A friend was flying back from Grimes and overflew the Class C, staying just a few hundred feet above the airspace. I agree with your recommendation that it would be prudent to contact ATC before flying over the airspace. Back to top Eric Greenwell Guest Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Transponders Above Class C Airspace CindyASK wrote: Quote: And for Eric G., as often as he and I agree, in this case I personally disagree. To avoid heartburn and grumpy FAA folks, install more battery capacity. If you are flying around Class A/B/C airspace, you wanted those systems for that access, so please supply them well. Sufficient battery capacity is the best answer, but I've seen several pilots procrastinate on a transponder installation because of their worries about battery life and the "gotta have it on" regulation. My intent is to encourage these pilots to install a transponder sooner rather than later, even if they can't leave it on all the time with their current battery capacity. If you think you need a transponder, install it now, even if you haven't figured out how to get more batteries into the glider. By using it around the airspace where it's needed, you and others will be safer; in the meantime, you can deal with the design, installation, and approval issues (and cost) of another (or larger) battery box. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.