AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  LAK-12 Question Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Doug Hoffman Guest Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: LAK-12 Question I have noticed over the years that this glider sells for what seems to be a very low price given that it is a near 50:1 glider. But I notice lately that there are also some for sale on Wings & Wheels with relatively low total time: 320 hours $21k 260 hours $20k 200 hours $15k Other than the obvious issues of dealing with a more cumbersome glider to assemble, ground-handle, and store, is there some other inherent problem with these gliders? I would expect to see a lot more hours on gliders of this vintage, and a higher price for gliders of this performance. TIA -Doug Back to top kirk.stant Guest Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question I have a little time in a friend's Lak-12 flying XC out of Turf, AZ. Nice glider, if a little crude compared to similar German offerings. But everything works. Cockpit is big and comfortable, except for a "roger hook" type thingy at the rear of the canopy that would probably have put a dent in my noggin on a hard landing - but then I sat way back with the backrest removed. No real comfort issues during several 3- 4 hour flights. Flies nice, but it is a 20 meter ship, so adverse yaw is an issue. Real good weak weather ship. Never got to fly it ballasted, but chasing my friends in their 15 meter/std ships, I would gain on climbs and lose on fast long glides in typical strong AZ conditions - exactly what you would expect for an unballasted 20 m ship. On weak days, it would easily outclimb smaller ships, and late afternoon/evening final glides were wonderful - felt like you could go forever!. Landing took some care due to adverse yaw and long wings. Also, wheel is too far aft (IMHO), so it is easy to put on nose using the effective wheel brake (very un-german in that respect!). Now the bad part. ONE PIECE WINGS. Real heavy to rig/derig, huge trailer. So solve the rigging issue (one man rig, lots of friends, hangar) and it's really got a lot of bank for the buck! I think it would be a great ship for the midwest (lots of runways/big fields to land in) but I worried about landing out in small narrow desert strips with it. If offered, I would fly one again in a heartbeat! Kirk LS6-b "66" Back to top Stewart Kissel Guest Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question I googled this topic and could not find previous threads on RAS, but I suspect they exist. I would expect most experiences are similiar to mine...helped put the huge wings on, but no time flying the bird. It would be my experience that if one of these landed out in a field where self-riggers would not operate...it would be 3-4 strong friends to get it into a trailer. Assembly/disassem bly reminded me of a Grob 103, although on hardtop with self rigging gear and a good trailer I suspect things would be much easier. Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question "Stewart Kissel" <REMOVE_TO_REPLY.stewartkissel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:5a41ctF2n6sipU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net... Quote: I googled this topic and could not find previous threads on RAS, but I suspect they exist. I would expect most experiences are similiar to mine...helped put the huge wings on, but no time flying the bird. It would be my experience that if one of these landed out in a field where self-riggers would not operate...it would be 3-4 strong friends to get it into a trailer. Assembly/disassem bly reminded me of a Grob 103, although on hardtop with self rigging gear and a good trailer I suspect things would be much easier. Frank Whiteley, who owns a LAK-12, and I have discussed this. If the one-man rigging system used "gate hinge" type root dolleys on the trailer, then the wings could be swung out ~45 degrees to the trailer/fuselage before the Udo-type wing dolly was attached to the wing CG. Then, the wheels of the wing dolly needn't roll more than 4-6 feet when rigging/derigging. One could pack a sheet of plywood to lay on soft ground for the wing dolly wheels to roll on. That way, even if you landed in a soft plowed field, rigging aids would still work. Bill Daniels Back to top Mike the Strike Guest Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question Kirk is right on with his description. It appears very similar in most respects to the Jantar-1 (19m), which I did own and fly. When I drove my trailer on to the field, all rigging volunteers instantly disappeared! When I got a hangar, it proved an enjoyable ship to own and fly. I suspect the same is true of the LAK-12. I wouldn't consider it if you're going to rig every day before flying. Mike Back to top Eric Greenwell Guest Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question Bill Daniels wrote: Quote: If the one-man rigging system used "gate hinge" type root dolleys on the trailer, then the wings could be swung out ~45 degrees to the trailer/fuselage before the Udo-type wing dolly was attached to the wing CG. Then, the wheels of the wing dolly needn't roll more than 4-6 feet when rigging/derigging. One could pack a sheet of plywood to lay on soft ground for the wing dolly wheels to roll on. That way, even if you landed in a soft plowed field, rigging aids would still work. If it's a soft plowed field, would you be able to get a heavy 40 foot long trailer to the glider? And get it out when it's even heavier with the glider in it? It wouldn't work around here in eastern Washington state as the vehicles would get stuck, and many farmers would not like the car and trailer on their plowed field. I've never helped carry a Lak 12 out of a field, though it might be fun to be the guy taking the pictures of the retrieve! Maybe Doug should call all the people selling the Lak 12 and ask them why they are selling it. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question "Eric Greenwell" <flyguy26e (AT) verizon (DOT) netto> wrote in message news:Dk6%h.426$dj2.277@trndny02... Quote: Bill Daniels wrote: If the one-man rigging system used "gate hinge" type root dolleys on the trailer, then the wings could be swung out ~45 degrees to the trailer/fuselage before the Udo-type wing dolly was attached to the wing CG. Then, the wheels of the wing dolly needn't roll more than 4-6 feet when rigging/derigging. One could pack a sheet of plywood to lay on soft ground for the wing dolly wheels to roll on. That way, even if you landed in a soft plowed field, rigging aids would still work. If it's a soft plowed field, would you be able to get a heavy 40 foot long trailer to the glider? And get it out when it's even heavier with the glider in it? It wouldn't work around here in eastern Washington state as the vehicles would get stuck, and many farmers would not like the car and trailer on their plowed field. Is there any real difference between a 30 foot trailer and a 40 foot in this situation? It's also worth pointing out that with the LAK's performance, it shouldn't arise often. Obviously, driving into a soft field is a bad idea that should be avoided if possible but it's been done successfully. The LAK is heavier than, say, a 3-piece wing BG-12 or a Skylark 4, but I've helped get those out of plowed fields. I recall some pilots carrying a 1000' spool of rope and a pulley block to gently pull gliders to a gate where they could be derigged without putting the trailer on the field. The LAK WILL be more of a problem in retrieves but if you think about it you can deal with it. The LAK is not as bad as my old Lark IS28b2 and I could rig it solo.. Bill Daniels Back to top Doug Hoffman Guest Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:24 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question Thanks for all of the feedback, guys. The weak lift performance is certainly a plus here in Michigan. The downside issues are food for thought. Paying for a hangar so it could be left rigged is out of the question for me. Although I currently use an Udo dolly on my 15-meter ship and that dolly is marvelous. It may make the LAK-12 assembly/ disassembly task acceptable. Regards, -Doug Back to top Eric Greenwell Guest Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question Bill Daniels wrote: Quote: If it's a soft plowed field, would you be able to get a heavy 40 foot long trailer to the glider? And get it out when it's even heavier with the glider in it? It wouldn't work around here in eastern Washington state as the vehicles would get stuck, and many farmers would not like the car and trailer on their plowed field. Is there any real difference between a 30 foot trailer and a 40 foot in this situation? I would expect a much larger and heavier trailer to be a much bigger problem. The tow car has got to pull a lot harder, with a greater risk digging into the soft dirt, You can't manhandle it as easily if it gets stuck. Quote: It's also worth pointing out that with the LAK's performance, it shouldn't arise often. That depends on the pilot ^ - nobody needs to land in a field if it's important not to, and at 20 meters, many airports and private strips are unusable. The fear of a difficult retrieve or damage when landing on a small airport makes the pilot fly more conservatively, which reduces his soaring pleasure, and I suspect that factor is about half of the reason these gliders are so cheap. The other half is the irritation of dealing with them on the ground, or paying for a hangar. Quote: The LAK WILL be more of a problem in retrieves but if you think about it you can deal with it. Agreed! A prospective owner should consider the hassles and if there are acceptable solutions to them, and not be let the "bang for the buck" figure crowd out consideration of these issues. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org Back to top Frank Whiteley Guest Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question On May 5, 4:54 am, Doug Hoffman <dhoff...@talkamerica.net> wrote: Quote: I have noticed over the years that this glider sells for what seems to be a very low price given that it is a near 50:1 glider. But I notice lately that there are also some for sale on Wings & Wheels with relatively low total time: 320 hours $21k 260 hours $20k 200 hours $15k Other than the obvious issues of dealing with a more cumbersome glider to assemble, ground-handle, and store, is there some other inherent problem with these gliders? I would expect to see a lot more hours on gliders of this vintage, and a higher price for gliders of this performance. TIA -Doug Tried to reply twice earlier but neither have showed up yet. Seems to happen on the weekends. For those interested in buying, join the Yahoo group LAK12 and review some of the items there. The LAK-12 flies fine. I haven't flown mine with water yet, but a couple of owners report that ballast makes it a different, and even better, glider. There are a couple of size considerations if you have a long torso or big feet. Both can be accommodated to some extent. It is pretty heavy, flapped, and I suspect some low-time in glider owners haven't been comfortable in it and didn't get much practice. The rigging effort required due to the poor trailer setup probably limited the amount of hours they were able to get and resulted in some intimidation regarding XC flying for others. The LAK12 is a niche glider, comparable to the Nimbus 2, ASW-17, and Kestrel 19, so attractive only to a smaller part of the market. Rigging and the trailer are real issues, owing in part to the 230lb wing panels and the poor trailer setup. Anyone considering buying one should budget for some trailer modifications. Doing so will relieve much of the problem. Domestic trailer replacement would cost about $8000 plus rigging. I understand some of the trailers have structural problems, and from what I've heard I suspect from excessive snow loads. The rigging issues are largely part of the trailer design and the wing root dollies. I've modified my door and rails with scissors jacks and have replaced the aft trailer supports with longer sections to reduce the fore and aft slope of the trailer dramatically and to keep the fuselage dolly on the tracks to avoid the tail lift to get the wheel down. Apart from that, the trailer tows well behind my F150 and the surge brakes work fine. The suspension is trailing torsion arm with shock. The sprung section is steel, not rubber. It smooths out the bumps. I think one owner had a suspension member fail. I use an Udo dolly, which is not quite right for this glider. The next stage will involve modifying the axle and inner wheel wells then adding another stabilizing track and modified root dollies and a new wing dolly. After that, I expect the glider with become one person rig with no heavy lifting. I can rig now with one other person, mostly for stabilizing the wings while moving them in and out of the trailer. The scissors jacks help with the spigot and spar pin alignments which are critical for assembly and finally with raising and lower the gear. Taking a couple of extra minutes with alignment before pulling the wings together makes it pretty easy. The real hard part is lifting the wings in and out of the trailer saddles atop the wheel wells and at the tip. It's the trailer design that's kept people from flying them much XC or frequently enough to be really comfortable with it. I suspect several of the owners may have been low time glider drivers and possibly first time private owners. This is my seventh glider and I had rigged one a few times before and knew what the pitfalls were. I've already solved some of the rigging issues and hope to finish the rest before long. I've rigged and derigged a lot of glider types over the years. The handbook for the LAK-12 says it can be rigged by 3-4 in 10 minutes. True, if it's the same crew each time, but where will you find that these days? But that also means a lot of lifting. So far I haven't heard about too many where the owners have taken time to fix the short comings of the trailer and rigging issues. It's doable. Have a peek in the lak12 yahoo group. Plus side Good forward and all around visibility. Excellent performance. Thermals dry down around 41-42kts. Tall undercarriage. Same oleo strut as Blaniks. Positive lock in up and down position. Medium effort to raise and lower. Good wheel brake with stick handle. Two 12AH battery boxes for all those gadgets. Good access to all controls and fittings. Ballast system appears both well designed and functions fine from what I'm told. Ventilation. So-so side In board sections are flaps only. Out board sections are flaperons. Tail emits a tone when thermaling on several, like blowing over the top of a beer bottle. Canopy is not strut supported, but held in open position by over- center lock. Original canopies are screwed, not glued, to frame. Down side Trailer design Wing root dollies Frank Whiteley Back to top Guest Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question 50:1? Land Out? huh????????? Back to top Eric Greenwell Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question cherokee373Y (AT) gmail (DOT) com wrote: Quote: 50:1? Land Out? huh????????? If you fly conservatively (well within the boundaries of your skill and glider's performance), you will rarely, if ever, land out; conversely, if you fly aggressively, you will land out often. The pilot determines the risk of landing out, not the glider. The performance of the glider will determine how far away from home the landout occurs. An aggressive pilot with a Cherokee will land out conveniently close to home and be retrieved in time for dinner, but an aggressive pilot in a Lak 12 might not be retrieved until the next day, cold and hungry. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly * "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4 * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org Back to top kirk.stant Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question On May 7, 1:36 pm, cherokee3...@gmail.com wrote: Quote: 50:1? Land Out? huh????????? You need to come check out some Arizona flyin'. There are times and places when you are cruising in the mid teens, and you can't SEE anyplace good to land down below! And if you are down below 10k ft, you start sweating a landout...still without seeing anyplace good to land... Yeah, 50/1 sure is nice at times! Kirk 66 Back to top Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: LAK-12 Question fly the cherokee conservatively and you'll land out close to home... Back to top kirk.stant Guest Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Agression and landouts (was - Re: LAK-12 Question) BG, I think what we have here is a difference in our "english". US usage of aggressive vs conservative. Different points on a range of approaches to a task. Foolhardy or Impulsively, or even carelessly & dangerously would be beyond aggressive on the scale. I think of aggressive when I tilt the balance of rewards vs risk in the direction of risk (in this case, landing out, not damage/injury). Conservative is avoiding the risk of landing out at any cost, usually due to logistics of a retrieve. US use of term aggressive may be cultural, come to think about it... Changing the subject, it's interesting that you have the same problem we have of clubs not liking XC flights. There really seems to be two types of glider pilots out there, at times! Cheers, Kirk 66 Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next Page 1 of 3   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.