AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  It only takes one...          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviators (General Discussions) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Kyle Boatright Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: It only takes one... This evening, one careless, clueless, oblivious, inattentive (choose one) pilot made a shambles of the pattern at my home field for 10 minutes. It was 20 minutes before dusk and the flock was returning home - there were aircraft in the pattern and at least 3 inbound. A guy (in a Cessna) announced a midfield crossover entry into the pattern for a touch and go, but indicated that he'd have to extend his downwind because he was 500' above pattern altitude. Fair enough, I thought - the guy is gonna fly a normal downwind + 1/2 mile. Long story short, the guy flew a normal downwind plus 2.5 miles, and his downwind was literally a mile wide to boot... So the airplane behind him (another Cessna) had to fly the same B-52 pattern, the Grumman behind *him* had to fly a B-47 pattern, and I followed with a B-29 pattern. Two inbound aircraft recognized that the traffic pattern was a mess and opted to do loiter outside the pattern to let things correct themselves. Then the original Cessna flying doofus flew an abbreviated upwind and crosswind after his touch and go and cut off the folks who had loitered waiting for everything to sort itself out. Aargh! I don't think I'll ever understand this type of pilot... The question in my mind was... Did the Cessna flying doofus even realize that A) he was flying a dumb and dangerous pattern, being outside of gliding range from the field, or that B) he caused a bad chain reaction in the pattern.?? As I said: It only takes one. Back to top Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... On May 1, 7:13 pm, "John T" <tknoflyer.no.s...@hotmail.com> wrote: Quote: My real point is "flying doofi" will always show themselves at the pattern (and elsewhere). The only thing we control is our reaction to them. -- John Thttp://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework:http://openspf.org ____________________ Ah, what the heck. He may have been new, and not really realized the distances and effects he was having. Or, he just did what he was taught. I'm glad to say I've never screwed up in a pattern. (snicker. I screwed it up so bad I turned 180, changed my callsign and came back later.) (No, actually, I didn't change my callsign. But I think they're still looking for me...) I guess the more important thing isn't what HE did, because HE will always be out there. The important thing is how you/we respond to the unexpected. Back to top John T Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote in message news:qfudnRKpWL46cqrbnZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com Quote: Long story short, the guy flew a normal downwind plus 2.5 miles, and his downwind was literally a mile wide to boot... ... The question in my mind was... Did the Cessna flying doofus even realize that A) he was flying a dumb and dangerous pattern, being outside of gliding range from the field, or that B) he caused a bad chain reaction in the pattern.?? What kind of Cessna? 150? 182? 206? Caravan? My point is the higher performance the plane, the larger the pattern. I wasn't there, so I'll take your word the pattern was wider than it needed to be. Still, I consider "gliding range in the pattern" a goal, not a rule with a "dumb" label applied to violators. Even if he was wide and long, why did you guys let it affect your pattern? You could've entered slow flight and/or used shallow S-turns, for instance, to eat time. My real point is "flying doofi" will always show themselves at the pattern (and elsewhere). The only thing we control is our reaction to them. -- John T http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org ____________________ Back to top Mortimer Schnerd, RN Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... Kyle Boatright wrote: Quote: The question in my mind was... Did the Cessna flying doofus even realize that A) he was flying a dumb and dangerous pattern, being outside of gliding range from the field, or that B) he caused a bad chain reaction in the pattern.?? I'm not arguing with the general point of your posting but I will take a poke at your assertion about being outside of gliding range of the field. With that sort of idea, how does one justify ever leaving the pattern to go somewhere? Every cross country is outside gliding distance of the field. Aside from that: A) possibly; and B) probably not. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com Back to top Kyle Boatright Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... "John T" <tknoflyer.no.spam (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4637f356$0$30718$9a6e19ea (AT) news (DOT) newshosting.com... Quote: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote in message news:qfudnRKpWL46cqrbnZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com Long story short, the guy flew a normal downwind plus 2.5 miles, and his downwind was literally a mile wide to boot... ... The question in my mind was... Did the Cessna flying doofus even realize that A) he was flying a dumb and dangerous pattern, being outside of gliding range from the field, or that B) he caused a bad chain reaction in the pattern.?? What kind of Cessna? 150? 182? 206? Caravan? My point is the higher performance the plane, the larger the pattern. I wasn't there, so I'll take your word the pattern was wider than it needed to be. Still, I consider "gliding range in the pattern" a goal, not a rule with a "dumb" label applied to violators. The guy was flying a 172, and turning 500 extra feet of altitude into a 3x sized pattern put him and everyone behind him at increased risk. Quote: Even if he was wide and long, why did you guys let it affect your pattern? You could've entered slow flight and/or used shallow S-turns, for instance, to eat time. You saw the part where each successive airplane flew a smaller pattern? There is only so much you can do when the origial spacing is 3/4 mile (?) or thereabouts. Airplane one (a Cessna) flew the downwind at 75 knots, airplane two (another Cessna) could comfortably slow to 65, airplane three ( a Grumman) probably needed 70 or 75 knots to be happy, and I was OK at 65 knots. Quote: My real point is "flying doofi" will always show themselves at the pattern (and elsewhere). The only thing we control is our reaction to them. You're right, but the problem with flying doofi is that we (you, I, and everyone else) *expect* other pilots to act in a "normal" manner. If a guy radios that he's gonna extend his downwind, we understand. But nobody expects a downwind extended by 2 miles. I'm sure everyone in tonight's pattern expected the guy to turn base ANY SECOND once he was a half mile beyond the normal pattern, and as the downwind extended and extended, I'd bet everyone behind the first guy was wondering.... What the heck is that guy doing??? Quote: -- John T http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org ____________________ Back to top Kyle Boatright Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message news:YZqdnWii7NnsnKXbnZ2dnUVZ_r2onZ2d (AT) giganews (DOT) com... Quote: Kyle Boatright wrote: The question in my mind was... Did the Cessna flying doofus even realize that A) he was flying a dumb and dangerous pattern, being outside of gliding range from the field, or that B) he caused a bad chain reaction in the pattern.?? I'm not arguing with the general point of your posting but I will take a poke at your assertion about being outside of gliding range of the field. With that sort of idea, how does one justify ever leaving the pattern to go somewhere? Every cross country is outside gliding distance of the field. Altitude, baybee... And time. From pattern altitude, my airplane has a minute's worth of glide time or maybe a mile and a half of "range" in a power off glide. Assuming (incorrectly) that anything within 1.5 miles of the airplane is within range, I have approximately 6 or 7 square miles of potential landing sites from pattern altitude. Realistically, the figure is probably 1/2 that. From 3, 4, or 5,000 AGL the options go up exponentially. At 5,000', I have about 7 minutes to restart the engine (assuming a switchology, tankology, or similar problem). Also, my airplane can glide about 9 miles. Again, assuming I can glide to anywhere within 9 miles, I have about 250 square miles of potential landing sites, which greatly increases my chances of a safe landing. In my local area, there are enough public and private fields that one is in range 80% or more of the time if I'm above 5,000' AGL. That makes me feel a little better about leaving the pattern. As the old farts say, the question isn't "if?", but "when?" the engine will fail. I try and stack the odds in my favor if the answer to the question is "now"... Quote: Aside from that: A) possibly; and B) probably not. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com Back to top tjd Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... On May 1, 9:55 pm, "Kyle Boatright" <kboatrig...@comcast.net> wrote: Quote: A guy (in a Cessna) announced a midfield crossover entry into the pattern for a touch and go, but indicated that he'd have to extend his downwind because he was 500' above pattern altitude. Fair enough, I thought - the guy is gonna fly a normal downwind + 1/2 mile. I see no-one has mentioned this part yet - descending into the traffic pattern is dangerous in and of itself and AC90-66A specifically recommends against it. The guy was probably cooking along at 110, hadn't done his checklists, etc. so no wonder it took him so long to turn base... Back to top BT Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... Ahh... cessna on the extended downwind.. if you are planning to log cross country on this pattern, do you mind if I make a tight pattern and get on the ground... great... thanks.. BT "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote in message news:qfudnRKpWL46cqrbnZ2dnUVZ_oSnnZ2d (AT) comcast (DOT) com... Quote: This evening, one careless, clueless, oblivious, inattentive (choose one) pilot made a shambles of the pattern at my home field for 10 minutes. It was 20 minutes before dusk and the flock was returning home - there were aircraft in the pattern and at least 3 inbound. A guy (in a Cessna) announced a midfield crossover entry into the pattern for a touch and go, but indicated that he'd have to extend his downwind because he was 500' above pattern altitude. Fair enough, I thought - the guy is gonna fly a normal downwind + 1/2 mile. Long story short, the guy flew a normal downwind plus 2.5 miles, and his downwind was literally a mile wide to boot... So the airplane behind him (another Cessna) had to fly the same B-52 pattern, the Grumman behind *him* had to fly a B-47 pattern, and I followed with a B-29 pattern. Two inbound aircraft recognized that the traffic pattern was a mess and opted to do loiter outside the pattern to let things correct themselves. Then the original Cessna flying doofus flew an abbreviated upwind and crosswind after his touch and go and cut off the folks who had loitered waiting for everything to sort itself out. Aargh! I don't think I'll ever understand this type of pilot... The question in my mind was... Did the Cessna flying doofus even realize that A) he was flying a dumb and dangerous pattern, being outside of gliding range from the field, or that B) he caused a bad chain reaction in the pattern.?? As I said: It only takes one. Back to top Dallas Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... On Tue, 1 May 2007 21:55:56 -0400, Kyle Boatright wrote: Quote: I don't think I'll ever understand this type of pilot... They're at every airport. We have Doctor that shows up once or so a week to fire up his Citabria and fly massive and unpredictable oval patterns for an hour. It's really quite educational for those learning to fly the pattern. He's been given the nickname "Doctor Death" by those who have survived his attempts to kill them. -- Dallas Back to top TheSmokingGnu Guest Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... Kyle Boatright wrote: Quote: This evening, one careless, clueless, oblivious, inattentive (choose one) pilot made a shambles of the pattern at my home field for 10 minutes. We shall term this the "McNicoll effect", for while being entirely within the bounds of the law, was being a complete ass and mucking it up for the rest of us. Which, of course, means that he wasn't a danger at all and how dare you question his piloting ability based on his obviously legal performance (sub-quote, you ugly tit). Sorry, can't resist. :D --- It sounds as though everyone else had the forethought to do the right thing, however I am concerned about the progression of the patterns. Shouldn't it be just about Global Hawk-sized by now, if indeed it kept on the same decay curve? TheSmokingGnu Back to top ManhattanMan Guest Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... Crash Lander wrote: Quote: "ManhattanMan" <umama (AT) binlaidon (DOT) com> wrote in message news:cg1_h.34933$Fk2.8054 (AT) newsfe08 (DOT) phx... I had an occassion where I entered downwind, had already passed the field, only other traffic was a guy still several miles out on a straight in final, and the tower cleared me for immediate landing, which was no problem in a 150, so I turned base - the guy still miles out really got his shorts bunched up and started screaming that someone had cut in front of him!!!!! Tower told him to cool it, there was more than adequate spacing.. d:->)) He obviously was not listening to the radio, otherwise he would have heard tower give you clearance to land! He was listening, just not thinking. It did give me a VBG when the tower told him to not sweat it! Back to top Guest Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... On May 2, 5:19 am, "Peter R." <pjr...@gmailX.com> wrote: Quote: On 5/1/2007 11:12:37 PM, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote: I'm not arguing with the general point of your posting but I will take a poke at your assertion about being outside of gliding range of the field. Isn't this guideline based on the theory that there is a higher chance of engine failure during changes in power settings? A reduction of power while entering the pattern, I recall reading, presents a statistically higher chance of engine failure than while at cruise. -- Peter Interesting... Sounds to me like: "There is a higher chance that the engine will quit while the pilot is manipulating the throttles, mixture, and carb heat." And in the pattern, the statistics might count because there is less time to recover than from, say, 10,000 feet Back to top JGalban via AviationKB.co Guest Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... Kyle Boatright wrote: Quote: Interesting question. I was #4 on downwind. If #2 had turned base, I think that would have been reasonable, but #4 turning base in front of 3 people on downwind might not have been appropriate... I don't see what would be inappropriate about it. If those 2 planes ahead are continuing to follow the guy who's over 2.5 miles away, you will certainly not be a factor to any of the 3 by the time they get back to the airport later that day. We get students flying these jumbo patterns quite a bit at my (towered) home field. The tower folks know I fly a tight pattern, so when practicing T&Gs behind one, the tower gives me a short approach when I'm abeam the numbers. I'm usually turning from the crosswind to downwind by the time the student crosses the threshold. I can generally make 3 laps for every 2 the student makes, and never get in the other plane's way. John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180) -- Message posted via AviationKB.com http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200705/1 Back to top Mike Adams Guest Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... "ManhattanMan" <umama (AT) binlaidon (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I had an occassion where I entered downwind, had already passed the field, only other traffic was a guy still several miles out on a straight in final, and the tower cleared me for immediate landing, I've had the same thing happen. Tower can tell if you're faster and flying a tighter pattern. In my case, if I recall, he cleared me for the touch and go without me asking for the shortcut. Maybe it's their way of sendng a not so subtle message to the guys flying the huge patterns. Mike Back to top Roger (K8RI) Guest Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: It only takes one... On Tue, 1 May 2007 21:55:56 -0400, "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: This evening, one careless, clueless, oblivious, inattentive (choose one) pilot made a shambles of the pattern at my home field for 10 minutes. It was 20 minutes before dusk and the flock was returning home - there were aircraft in the pattern and at least 3 inbound. A guy (in a Cessna) announced a midfield crossover entry into the pattern for a touch and go, but indicated that he'd have to extend his downwind because he was 500' above pattern altitude. Fair enough, I thought - the guy is gonna fly a normal downwind + 1/2 mile. Long story short, the guy flew a normal downwind plus 2.5 miles, and his downwind was literally a mile wide to boot... So the airplane behind him (another Cessna) had to fly the same B-52 pattern, the Grumman behind *him* had to fly a B-47 pattern, and I followed No he didn't. Quote: with a B-29 pattern. Two inbound aircraft recognized that the traffic pattern was a mess and opted to do loiter outside the pattern to let things correct themselves. What I see happen here is the guy flying the wide and or long base is very likely to find him, or her self outside the pattern with a whole group of planes flying the normal patterns. When you have a mix of every thing from ultra lights to high performance twins you can easily have two on down wind with one a city block out and another a mile out. the same is true for the long down wind. Every one thinks they are headed else where regardless of their radio calls. It leads to a lot of neck swiveling trying to find the errant plane, but we are lined right up with the 14 VOR approach into MBS. Planes flying the VOR 14 *should* be about a 1000 feet above our pattern, but VFR traffic will often be not much above our pattern and a plane 2 miles out does not appear to be in the pattern. Soooo...Those stretching the pattern way out to the side or in length often turn final to find as many as two on base on one on final ahead of them. On a busy day if they fly both wide and long it could be even more. No one...well not many stay inside on purpose, but they really can't claim they were cut off when they are so far out pilots in the pattern think they were headed some where else. We had that happen when a Mooney flew a very wide and long pattern and fund an ultra light and another plane on base and final ahead of him. He found no sympathy from the other pilots or airport manager when he complained. Actually the manager wanted to know why he was flying a non standard pattern. Quote: Then the original Cessna flying doofus flew an abbreviated upwind and crosswind after his touch and go and cut off the folks who had loitered waiting for everything to sort itself out. Aargh! I don't think I'll ever understand this type of pilot... The question in my mind was... Did the Cessna flying doofus even realize that A) he was flying a dumb and dangerous pattern, being outside of gliding range from the field, or that B) he caused a bad chain reaction in the pattern.?? As I said: It only takes one. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviators (General Discussions) All times are GMT Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.