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Mike
Guest
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 Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
OPEN THIS FILE AT HOME, NOT AT WORK!!!
MIKE
from Secrecy News www.fas.org
VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO)
More than 160 U.S. and foreign military aircraft are catalogued in a
U.S. Army manual which describes their distinctive physical
characteristics in order to permit visual identification of the
aircraft in flight. The manual is nominally a restricted document,
marked "for official use only," and it has not been approved for
public release. But a copy was obtained by Secrecy News. Proper
identification of aircraft is obviously a matter of military
significance. Incorrectly identifying a friendly aircraft (such as an
F-15 Eagle) as an enemy aircraft (such as a MiG-29 Fulcrum) in wartime
"could cause fratricide," meaning the destruction of friendly
aircraft, the manual states. Conversely, incorrectly identifying an
enemy aircraft (a Su-24 Fencer) as a friendly one (such as a Tornado)
"might allow a hostile aircraft entry into, or safe passage through,
the defended area." On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile
aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a
MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if
friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally
considered hostile." Likewise, mistaking one type of friendly aircraft
(an F-4 Phantom) for another (an A-4 Skyhawk) would normally not be a
great problem unless "a hostile country was using an aircraft type
that is normally considered friendly." The manual covers both well-
known and relatively obscure systems, but does not include classified
aircraft. Although an earlier edition of the manual was published
without access restrictions, the current edition (2006) was not
approved for public release. But as the government imposes publication
restrictions on an ever larger set of records, the control system
seems to be breaking down at the margins, permitting unauthorized
access with increasing frequency. In this case, contrary to the
restriction notice on the title page, the document does not reveal
sensitive "technical or operational information." See "Visual Aircraft
Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413
pages in a very large 28 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-01-80.pdf |
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Daryl Hunt
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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"Ed Rasimus" <rasimusSPAMLESS (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:tst4231msehvguk9avvv5ljo653a02egra (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
| Quote: | On 15 Apr 2007 11:41:55 -0700, "Gordon" <Gordon (AT) oldboldpilots (DOT) org
wrote:
Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18-
wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it.
It's remarkably easy to mistake a Scooter for a MiG-21 from some
aspects. Been there, done that. Didn't shoot!
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Was that an electric or a gas scooter? |
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Gordon
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18-
wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it. |
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Ed Rasimus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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On 15 Apr 2007 11:41:55 -0700, "Gordon" <Gordon (AT) oldboldpilots (DOT) org>
wrote:
| Quote: | Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18-
wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it.
It's remarkably easy to mistake a Scooter for a MiG-21 from some |
aspects. Been there, done that. Didn't shoot!
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
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Bill Shatzer
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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Mike wrote:
| Quote: | The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
|
Nah, the F-4 is the one trailing copious amounts of smoke.
Cheers, |
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Tiger
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:03 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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Mike wrote:
| Quote: | The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
OPEN THIS FILE AT HOME, NOT AT WORK!!!
MIKE
from Secrecy News www.fas.org
VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO)
More than 160 U.S. and foreign military aircraft are catalogued in a
U.S. Army manual which describes their distinctive physical
characteristics in order to permit visual identification of the
aircraft in flight. The manual is nominally a restricted document,
marked "for official use only," and it has not been approved for
public release. But a copy was obtained by Secrecy News. Proper
identification of aircraft is obviously a matter of military
significance. Incorrectly identifying a friendly aircraft (such as an
F-15 Eagle) as an enemy aircraft (such as a MiG-29 Fulcrum) in wartime
"could cause fratricide," meaning the destruction of friendly
aircraft, the manual states. Conversely, incorrectly identifying an
enemy aircraft (a Su-24 Fencer) as a friendly one (such as a Tornado)
"might allow a hostile aircraft entry into, or safe passage through,
the defended area." On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile
aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a
MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if
friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally
considered hostile." Likewise, mistaking one type of friendly aircraft
(an F-4 Phantom) for another (an A-4 Skyhawk) would normally not be a
great problem unless "a hostile country was using an aircraft type
that is normally considered friendly." The manual covers both well-
known and relatively obscure systems, but does not include classified
aircraft. Although an earlier edition of the manual was published
without access restrictions, the current edition (2006) was not
approved for public release. But as the government imposes publication
restrictions on an ever larger set of records, the control system
seems to be breaking down at the margins, permitting unauthorized
access with increasing frequency. In this case, contrary to the
restriction notice on the title page, the document does not reveal
sensitive "technical or operational information." See "Visual Aircraft
Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413
pages in a very large 28 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-01-80.pdf
People who think they look alike need to go to Pearl Vision worse than I |
do............. |
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Gordon
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:48 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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On Apr 15, 12:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <bshatze...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Mike wrote:
The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
Nah, the F-4 is the one trailing copious amounts of smoke.
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But the MiG 21 is the one on fire.  |
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Pat Flannery
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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Mike wrote:
| Quote: | The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
|
The two that would have been very difficult to identify properly would
have been the MiG-21 and Su-9; they looked almost identical.
Pat |
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Gordon
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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On Apr 15, 6:15 pm, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Gordon wrote:
Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18-
wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it.
Watch the movie "Ice Station Zebra" sometime- the MiG-21s magically
transform into F-4s as they overfly the ice station.
|
I can do better than that.  ) I have the 3' long MiG 21 model from
the movie on a shelf over my desk. They only used one, set up among
mirrors to make it appear to be a small formation of jets. Watch them
bank in the movie - that formation is almost "magically" tight...
The guy that made the movel originally is still breathing - we are
going to get him to replace the canopy which has deformed over the
years. Neat model, lots of detail, however most of it is painted on.
v/r Gordon |
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Pat Flannery
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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Gordon wrote:
| Quote: | Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18-
wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it.
|
Watch the movie "Ice Station Zebra" sometime- the MiG-21s magically
transform into F-4s as they overfly the ice station.
Pat |
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Gordon
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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The man that built it donated it to the San Diego Aerospace Museum in
approximately 1982 -- I have a photo of myself with it in September
1983 in the library of the museum.
v/r
Gordon
Seka? Did you really just invoke the name of Seka?? You are talking
to a fan of KEISHA, a *real* woman! |
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TJ
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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On 15 Apr, 17:00, "Mike" <yared22...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
OPEN THIS FILE AT HOME, NOT AT WORK!!!
MIKE
from Secrecy Newswww.fas.org
VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION (FOUO)
More than 160 U.S. and foreign military aircraft are catalogued in a
U.S. Army manual which describes their distinctive physical
characteristics in order to permit visual identification of the
aircraft in flight. The manual is nominally a restricted document,
marked "for official use only," and it has not been approved for
public release. But a copy was obtained by Secrecy News. Proper
identification of aircraft is obviously a matter of military
significance. Incorrectly identifying a friendly aircraft (such as an
F-15 Eagle) as an enemy aircraft (such as a MiG-29 Fulcrum) in wartime
"could cause fratricide," meaning the destruction of friendly
aircraft, the manual states. Conversely, incorrectly identifying an
enemy aircraft (a Su-24 Fencer) as a friendly one (such as a Tornado)
"might allow a hostile aircraft entry into, or safe passage through,
the defended area." On the other hand, mistaking one type of hostile
aircraft (a Su-17 Fitter) for another type of hostile aircraft (a
MiG-21 Fishbed) would generally have "no impact" -- except "if
friendly countries were flying some aircraft types that are normally
considered hostile." Likewise, mistaking one type of friendly aircraft
(an F-4 Phantom) for another (an A-4 Skyhawk) would normally not be a
great problem unless "a hostile country was using an aircraft type
that is normally considered friendly." The manual covers both well-
known and relatively obscure systems, but does not include classified
aircraft. Although an earlier edition of the manual was published
without access restrictions, the current edition (2006) was not
approved for public release. But as the government imposes publication
restrictions on an ever larger set of records, the control system
seems to be breaking down at the margins, permitting unauthorized
access with increasing frequency. In this case, contrary to the
restriction notice on the title page, the document does not reveal
sensitive "technical or operational information." See "Visual Aircraft
Recognition," U.S. Army Field Manual FM 3-01.80, January 2006 (413
pages in a very large 28 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-01-80.pdf
|
Who did the proof reading on that document. Some of the errors are
atrocious. I hope nobody was tested on 'user countries'
Jaguar
user countries
'Pakistan, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, USA'
MiG-29 Fulcrum
User countries
'Bahrain, Belgium, Denmark, Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Israel,
Netherlands, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Singapore, South Korea,
Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, Venezuela'
Same for the Mirage III/V and Orao user countries.
The imagery is generally good. The only glaringly obvious mistake was
that one of the images of the Su-15 Flagon is a J-8 Finback
Su-27 Flanker
User country
'Germany'
The old mistake of 'Tu-26' for Tu-22M
'TU-26 Backfire'
There is a lot of aircraft in that document that have retired or even
never entered service.
Yak-28
Su-15
They even have the Nimrod AEW3! |
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qui si parla Campagnolo
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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On Apr 15, 1:14 pm, Bill Shatzer <bshatze...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Mike wrote:
The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
Nah, the F-4 is the one trailing copious amounts of smoke.
Cheers,
|
Only the USAF ones...late models of USN had smokeless engines..flew
'em in VF-151-'S' model. |
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John Carrier
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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"Gordon" <Gordon (AT) oldboldpilots (DOT) org> wrote in message
news:1176662515.817142.235960 (AT) w1g2000hsg (DOT) googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Mistaking an F-4 for a Scooter or a MiG 21 is like mistaking an 18-
wheeler for a Hummer. Sure, a moron could do it.
|
Actually, an F-4 in planform at about 4-5 miles looks a lot like an A-4 at
3-4 miles. It's easy to VID when your looking at pictures in a book, not so
easy when the aircraft is near the limits of vision (sun position, clear sky
background or not, etc).
We altered the rules for an ACM derby a number of years back. A mistaken
VID and shot cost the shooters points. With a mixed F-5 / A-4 section (you
couldn't ask for more dissimilar aircraft), head-on VID ranges came down
from 3+ miles to less than a mile.
R / John |
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Ed Rasimus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION |
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On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 12:14:56 -0700, Bill Shatzer
<bshatzerNO (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | Mike wrote:
The F-14, F-15 MiG-29 and Su-27 series all look a LOT alike in motion
to most people. MiG-21 and the F-4 look virtually identical in
flight.
Nah, the F-4 is the one trailing copious amounts of smoke.
Cheers,
|
Believe it or not, that was a huge advantage for us in SEA. It was a
quick clue whether or not a bogie was friendly. When you've got
numerical superiority you don't mind being visible and gaining a
little protection from an over-eager shooter.
But, the smoke pretty much went away from the F-4 fleet around 1980 as
I recall. The upgraded combustion section of the J-79 came around the
same time as the wrap-around camo pattern.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
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