AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Been taken over?          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviation (Students) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Crash Lander Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Been taken over? I asked my instructor on the weekend what a pilot is expected to do, should he come across a downed plane, or was in the vicinity on another plane that was going down, or making a forced landing. He said that you should tune to the relevant ATC frequency, and inform them of what has/is happening, and where you are. He then said that the head controller would come on the radio and inform you he is taking control of your aircraft, and instruct you to remain in the area. He said you are not to leave the area unless you are running low on fuel yourself. He said that the controller would dispatch a helicopter to the area to land near the wreck/downed a/c. He also said that you would be paid for your time whilst you are holding position. My instructor said this exact scenario happened to him once. Anyone else had a similar experience? Crash Lander -- I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong! Back to top Bob Gardner Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? "Crash Lander" <here (AT) there (DOT) com.za> wrote in message news:vdAUh.13896$M.1128@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Quote: I asked my instructor on the weekend what a pilot is expected to do, should he come across a downed plane, or was in the vicinity on another plane that was going down, or making a forced landing. He said that you should tune to the relevant ATC frequency, and inform them of what has/is happening, and where you are. He then said that the head controller would come on the radio and inform you he is taking control of your aircraft, and instruct you to remain in the area. He said you are not to leave the area unless you are running low on fuel yourself. He said that the controller would dispatch a helicopter to the area to land near the wreck/downed a/c. He also said that you would be paid for your time whilst you are holding position. My instructor said this exact scenario happened to him once. Anyone else had a similar experience? Crash Lander -- I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong! Doesn't work that way in the US of A. Report the position to ATC, (who can't "take over your airplane"), and don't expect to get paid. Bob Gardner Back to top Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? "Crash Lander" <here (AT) there (DOT) com.za> wrote in message news:vdAUh.13896$M.1128@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Quote: I asked my instructor on the weekend what a pilot is expected to do, should he come across a downed plane, or was in the vicinity on another plane that was going down, or making a forced landing. He said that you should tune to the relevant ATC frequency, and inform them of what has/is happening, and where you are. He then said that the head controller would come on the radio and inform you he is taking control of your aircraft, and instruct you to remain in the area. He said you are not to leave the area unless you are running low on fuel yourself. He said that the controller would dispatch a helicopter to the area to land near the wreck/downed a/c. He also said that you would be paid for your time whilst you are holding position. My instructor said this exact scenario happened to him once. Anyone else had a similar experience? Crash Lander Yea, my brother and I were following a guy (and his kid) when his engine quit and he went down. We hung around on our own since the they that went down was in the middle of a swamp near the Canada / Alaska border and we wanted to make sure they were found. We figgured it would be easier to find him if there was someone overhead to direct (this was before all this GPS stuff). ATC didn't ask us to stay. And we sure didn't get paid. But rules might be different between the US and NZ. A helicopter did eventually show up (we had to go back and re-fuel once) and pulled them out OK. When they got to the nearest airport (Northway), the US Customs guy gave him a hard time about "landing short" without clearing customs. -- Geoff The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate. Back to top C J Campbell Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? On 2007-04-15 18:22:35 -0700, "Crash Lander" <here (AT) there (DOT) com.za> said: Quote: I asked my instructor on the weekend what a pilot is expected to do, should he come across a downed plane, or was in the vicinity on another plane that was going down, or making a forced landing. He said that you should tune to the relevant ATC frequency, and inform them of what has/is happening, and where you are. He then said that the head controller would come on the radio and inform you he is taking control of your aircraft, and instruct you to remain in the area. He said you are not to leave the area unless you are running low on fuel yourself. He said that the controller would dispatch a helicopter to the area to land near the wreck/downed a/c. He also said that you would be paid for your time whilst you are holding position. My instructor said this exact scenario happened to him once. Anyone else had a similar experience? Crash Lander Not in the US. A controller can't take over your plane or order you to do much of anything. Of course, someone who will not report the position of a downed airplane is lower than a worm. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor Back to top Crash Lander Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message news:xIudnWqR2eXwSr_bnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d (AT) wideopenwest (DOT) com... Quote: Yea, my brother and I were following a guy (and his kid) when his engine quit and he went down. We hung around on our own since the they that went down was in the middle of a swamp near the Canada / Alaska border and we wanted to make sure they were found. We figgured it would be easier to find him if there was someone overhead to direct (this was before all this GPS stuff). ATC didn't ask us to stay. And we sure didn't get paid. But rules might be different between the US and NZ. I'm in Australia. Mate, seeing an a/c go down in a swamp! You'd want to try and land somewhere close by and try and help them wouldn't you? Obviously too much risk for your own plane, but jeez, you'd feel helpless wouldn't you? Crash Lander Back to top Roy Smith Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? In article <kTBUh.13951$M.13490@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, "Crash Lander" <here (AT) there (DOT) com.za> wrote: Quote: "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message news:xIudnWqR2eXwSr_bnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d (AT) wideopenwest (DOT) com... Yea, my brother and I were following a guy (and his kid) when his engine quit and he went down. We hung around on our own since the they that went down was in the middle of a swamp near the Canada / Alaska border and we wanted to make sure they were found. We figgured it would be easier to find him if there was someone overhead to direct (this was before all this GPS stuff). ATC didn't ask us to stay. And we sure didn't get paid. But rules might be different between the US and NZ. I'm in Australia. Mate, seeing an a/c go down in a swamp! You'd want to try and land somewhere close by and try and help them wouldn't you? Obviously too much risk for your own plane, but jeez, you'd feel helpless wouldn't you? Crash Lander The law of the sea is that if another ship is in trouble, you do whatever you can to help them. This doesn't translate too well to aircraft, but in this case it does. If circling their location and guiding rescue personnel to their location is all you can do, then that's what you should do. If you're worrying about who's going to pay for your gas, you've got your head screwed on backwards. Back to top Crash Lander Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? "Roy Smith" <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote in message news:roy-19076E.23503515042007@032-325-625.area1.spcsdns.net... Quote: The law of the sea is that if another ship is in trouble, you do whatever you can to help them. This doesn't translate too well to aircraft, but in this case it does. If circling their location and guiding rescue personnel to their location is all you can do, then that's what you should do. If you're worrying about who's going to pay for your gas, you've got your head screwed on backwards. Completely agree. When he said time whilst under command of the ATC in this situation is paid for, I almost died. I don't know why someone would expect that, but apparently some people do, so they pay it. You don't expect payment if you stop to help a stranded motorist, and the camaraderie of the air surely is stronger than that. Crash Lander Back to top Euan Kilgour Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? On Apr 16, 3:15 pm, "Crash Lander" <h...@there.com.za> wrote: Quote: "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in messagenews:xIudnWqR2eXwSr_bnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d (AT) wideopenwest (DOT) com... ATC didn't ask us to stay. And we sure didn't get paid. But rules might be different between the US and NZ. I'm in Australia. Mate, seeing an a/c go down in a swamp! You'd want to try and land somewhere close by and try and help them wouldn't you? Obviously too much risk for your own plane, but jeez, you'd feel helpless wouldn't you? Crash Lander You are in the best position to report the accident to the relevant authorities in a timely manner, and your prompt action may save lives without having to risk yourself and your aircraft. I guess you may ask ATC for instructions but at the end of the day YOU are still the pilot in command, so you can opt to continue on or divert (once you have raised the alarm) if you feel the safety of the plane might be at risk, in particular if you witnessed the accident. The last thing I'd want to do is go into shock while at the controls of an aircraft. Back to top Crash Lander Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? "Euan Kilgour" <av8bharrier2 (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote in message news:1176698247.705728.288340 (AT) b75g2000hsg (DOT) googlegroups.com... Quote: The last thing I'd want to do is go into shock while at the controls of an aircraft. That's something I never thought of. If you witnessed a fairly dramatic crash, you could quite possibly go into shock I suppose. Good point. Crash Lander Back to top Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? "Crash Lander" <here (AT) there (DOT) com.za> wrote in message news:kTBUh.13951$M.13490@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Quote: "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message news:xIudnWqR2eXwSr_bnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d (AT) wideopenwest (DOT) com... Yea, my brother and I were following a guy (and his kid) when his engine quit and he went down. We hung around on our own since the they that went down was in the middle of a swamp near the Canada / Alaska border and we wanted to make sure they were found. We figgured it would be easier to find him if there was someone overhead to direct (this was before all this GPS stuff). ATC didn't ask us to stay. And we sure didn't get paid. But rules might be different between the US and NZ. I'm in Australia. Mate, Oops - sorry. Quote: seeing an a/c go down in a swamp! You'd want to try and land somewhere close by and try and help them wouldn't you? Yea, but when they went in they rolled just a few plane lengths and then went over on their back in the mud. The nearest airport was just a few miles away, but there was no way to get to them from there - it's all swamp and mud. Somewhere near the middle of this picture: <http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=11&ll=62.871431,-141.719513&spn=0.13933,0.531464&t=h&om=1> Quote: Obviously too much risk for your own plane, but jeez, you'd feel helpless wouldn't you? No kidding. The worst part was right after they went in - it took a while before they got out - I know I was in a bit of a panic. Once they got out and started walking aound on the bottom of the wing, it was a lot easier. My brother made a low pass while I hung out the window waving an ELT and a mike hoping that he would think to get his ELT and call us on that. He did and we were able to tell him that help was on the way via "wag the wings for yes"... He told us afterward that his son was afraid we were going to try and land. -- Geoff The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate. Back to top Watson Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? About a year and a half ago, a student and I were practicing T&Gs behind a Viking at our home base, a controlled field. As we were touching down the Viking was turning crosswind and called an engine out in a very calm voice. We were airborne shortly thereafter and the freq was very quiet.. The tower asked us to continue upwind to locate the downed a/c. They kept insisting that we were right over the accident scene. The downed plane was actually about a mile and half beyond where their radar said it was (dropped below radar coverage, mountainous area). I had the student fly the plane at a 1000' agl and specific airspeed and no greater than 20 deg AOB. Tower asked us to direct the airport crash truck to the scene about 3 miles off the airport. The hardest part was the very rough terrain and the fire truck being high centered a lot. The fire truck driver would try to double think me. You know, "He said right turn, but he is coming at me, so he really means left turn." stuff like that. I had flown SAR missions for CAP before and had done numerous air/ground coordination exercises. The student flew the airplane well and did not panic which allowed me to work the radios. The crash truck could not get to the scene. So the local Flight for Life Chopper was dispatched and I vectored him in. The guy in the Viking didn't make it and it turned out I knew him, but was not aware of it at the time. No offer from ATC to pay for additional time on the plane (an hour). Not even a thank-you from them. But I did end up talking to his widow more than I felt comfortable doing. Cause of engine failure: Fuel exhaustion. Watson "Jim Stewart" <jstewart (AT) jkmicro (DOT) com> wrote in message news:DfqdnTXCru1hK77bnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d (AT) omsoft (DOT) com... Quote: Crash Lander wrote: I asked my instructor on the weekend what a pilot is expected to do, should he come across a downed plane, or was in the vicinity on another plane that was going down, or making a forced landing. He said that you should tune to the relevant ATC frequency, and inform them of what has/is happening, and where you are. He then said that the head controller would come on the radio and inform you he is taking control of your aircraft, and instruct you to remain in the area. He said you are not to leave the area unless you are running low on fuel yourself. He said that the controller would dispatch a helicopter to the area to land near the wreck/downed a/c. He also said that you would be paid for your time whilst you are holding position. My instructor said this exact scenario happened to him once. Anyone else had a similar experience? Crash Lander No, but when I was practicing turns around a point, that scenario certainly entered my mind. Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? On Apr 15, 7:53 pm, C J Campbell <christophercampb...@hotmail.com> wrote: Quote: On 2007-04-15 18:22:35 -0700, "Crash Lander" <h...@there.com.za> said: I asked my instructor on the weekend what a pilot is expected to do, should he come across a downed plane, or was in the vicinity on another plane that was going down, or making a forced landing. He said that you should tune to the relevant ATC frequency, and inform them of what has/is happening, and where you are. He then said that the head controller would come on the radio and inform you he is taking control of your aircraft, and instruct you to remain in the area. He said you are not to leave the area unless you are running low on fuel yourself. He said that the controller would dispatch a helicopter to the area to land near the wreck/downed a/c. He also said that you would be paid for your time whilst you are holding position. My instructor said this exact scenario happened to him once. Anyone else had a similar experience? Crash Lander Not in the US. A controller can't take over your plane or order you to do much of anything. Of course, someone who will not report the position of a downed airplane is lower than a worm. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor When the AOPA TriPacer crashed at our airport local pilots had to put a tarp over it. Our runway was right under the ILS path of Sac Exec airport and every plane practicing the ILS or just overflying that area was reporting a downed airplane. -robert Back to top john smith Guest Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:42 am    Post subject: Re: Been taken over? In article <1177719176.818911.320130 (AT) o5g2000hsb (DOT) googlegroups.com>, "Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: When the AOPA TriPacer crashed at our airport local pilots had to put a tarp over it. I never heard about that! When did it happen? 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