AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Autopilot use during approach Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Ron Gordon Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:55 am    Post subject: Autopilot use during approach I've moved up to a new plane that includes an S-Tec 50 autopilot. It has several very capable modes ranging from Wings Leveler, Track a Heading bug, Follow NAV input, Hold a set Altitude, and approach mode which tracks NAV input more closely. What do the regs say about the permissible use of an autopilot after the enroute portion of a flight that is being conducted under instrument flight rules? To what extent is it permissible to use the autopilot during an approach? For example, after the controller says "radar vectors for..." through DH? Thanks! Back to top Jim Macklin Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Every airplane flight manual/POH has an autopilot supplement that answers those questions. The autopilot must be configured to begin and complete the approach early in the sequence so that it can arm and capture the loc and gs properly. Typically you can stay coupled to 50-100 feet AGL on a GS and to 50 feet below MDA on a non-precision approach. "Ron Gordon" <bill (AT) microsoft (DOT) com> wrote in message news:OFzTh.9533$YL5.8253 (AT) newssvr29 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... | I've moved up to a new plane that includes an S-Tec 50 autopilot. It has | several very capable modes ranging from Wings Leveler, Track a Heading bug, | Follow NAV input, Hold a set Altitude, and approach mode which tracks NAV | input more closely. | | What do the regs say about the permissible use of an autopilot after the | enroute portion of a flight that is being conducted under instrument flight | rules? To what extent is it permissible to use the autopilot during an | approach? For example, after the controller says "radar vectors for..." | through DH? | | Thanks! | | Back to top Dan Luke Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach "Ron Gordon" wrote: Quote: I've moved up to a new plane that includes an S-Tec 50 autopilot. It has several very capable modes ranging from Wings Leveler, Track a Heading bug, Follow NAV input, Hold a set Altitude, and approach mode which tracks NAV input more closely. What do the regs say about the permissible use of an autopilot after the enroute portion of a flight that is being conducted under instrument flight rules? Nothing, at least for Part 91 operations; might be different for 35 or 121, I don't know. Quote: To what extent is it permissible to use the autopilot during an approach? For example, after the controller says "radar vectors for..." through DH? I use my S-Tec 50 in approaches all the time, but usually not in the final segment of an ILS. The 50 is not a top-of-the-line autopilot; I flatter myself that I can do it better. -- Dan C172RG at BFM Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Ron Gordon writes: Quote: I've moved up to a new plane that includes an S-Tec 50 autopilot. It has several very capable modes ranging from Wings Leveler, Track a Heading bug, Follow NAV input, Hold a set Altitude, and approach mode which tracks NAV input more closely. What do the regs say about the permissible use of an autopilot after the enroute portion of a flight that is being conducted under instrument flight rules? To what extent is it permissible to use the autopilot during an approach? For example, after the controller says "radar vectors for..." through DH? Anything you can legally fly by hand can also be flown by the autopilot, since you remain in command and can take over at any time; using autopilot is like using trim in that case. However, you can't use the autopilot to fly something you could not legally fly by hand unless both you and the aircraft are certificated to do so. As long as you are flying an approach that you can legally fly by hand, whether or not you actually use the autopilot to fly it is purely your choice. In contrast, there are situations in which flying by hand is not allowed and only flying by autopilot is permitted (or only flying by hand with special assistance, such as EFVS, is permitted), such as landings that are below the minimums for any type of hand-flown instrument approach (Cat IIIc autolands). These require that both pilot and aircraft (and instruments) be approved for the automation in question. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top Thomas Borchert Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Jim, Quote: so that it can arm and capture the loc and gs properly. The S-TEC 50 doesn't do that. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) Back to top Ron Rosenfeld Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:01:32 +0200, Thomas Borchert <borchert_thomas (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Ron, I have seen vastly different accuracy on different installations in different aircraft with the S-TEC 50. On our Tobago, it can be used well on approaches down to 200 feet. In my Mooney, I will occasionally allow my STEC50 to fly an approach, if there is absolutely no turbulence and little change in the winds during descent. Sometimes it even gets to DH/MDA still on the centerline! But it's not unusual for it to get 1/2 to 3/4 scale off course. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) Back to top ArtP Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 04:08:29 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Anything you can legally fly by hand can also be flown by the autopilot, since you remain in command and can take over at any time; using autopilot is like using trim in that case. However, you can't use the autopilot to fly something you could not legally fly by hand unless both you and the aircraft are certificated to do so. As long as you are flying an approach that you can legally fly by hand, whether or not you actually use the autopilot to fly it is purely your choice. In the Cirrus the autopilot manual (STEC 55X) did not permit operation below 200 feet or when full flaps were deployed. Clearly a case where you could legally fly by hand but not with the autopilot. Back to top Thomas Borchert Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Ron, Quote: But it's not unusual for it to get 1/2 to 3/4 scale off course. I know. A friend of mine has similar issues in a BN-2. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) Back to top Rip Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Mxsmanic wrote: Quote: Anything you can legally fly by hand can also be flown by the autopilot, since SNIP That is a patently false and dangerous statement. Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Rip writes: Quote: That is a patently false and dangerous statement. Explain the error(s). -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top Ron Natalie Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Mxsmanic wrote: Quote: Anything you can legally fly by hand can also be flown by the autopilot, since you remain in command and can take over at any time; using autopilot is like using trim in that case. Untrue. Autopilot installations are one of the more rigorously handled aircraft modifications. There will certainly be LEGALLY BINDING operating limitations that apply to the use of the autopilot. There are quite good reasons for these restrictions by the way The fact that you have never seen a legal AFM and it's supplements is again demonstrating that you have no business telling real pilots what is safe OR legal. Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Ron Natalie writes: Quote: Untrue. Autopilot installations are one of the more rigorously handled aircraft modifications. There will certainly be LEGALLY BINDING operating limitations that apply to the use of the autopilot. Yes, but they aren't in the FARs. In general, as long as you do not rely on the autopilot to do something you cannot do by hand, you're fine. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top Ray Andraka Guest Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Mxsmanic wrote: Quote: Ron Natalie writes: Untrue. Autopilot installations are one of the more rigorously handled aircraft modifications. There will certainly be LEGALLY BINDING operating limitations that apply to the use of the autopilot. Yes, but they aren't in the FARs. In general, as long as you do not rely on the autopilot to do something you cannot do by hand, you're fine. WRONG! If your POH supplement for the autopilot has operating limitations, it isn't legal to use contrary to those limitations. Mine doesn't allow use of the autopilot with the landing lights on, for example. You won't find these anywhere in the AIM or FARs, but they are just as binding as one of the regulations. You also potentially have more at stake by ignoring an operation limitation than you do by breaking a FAR. Then again, if you are only flying a simulator then I suppose the operating limitations don't apply. After all, the worst thing that could happen is you'd have to push the reset button. Back to top kevmor Guest Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach I'm curious, why don't they let you use it with the landing lights? Quote: If your POH supplement for the autopilot has operating limitations, it isn't legal to use contrary to those limitations. Mine doesn't allow use of the autopilot with the landing lights on, for example. You won't find these anywhere in the AIM or FARs, but they are just as binding as Back to top Ron Natalie Guest Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: Autopilot use during approach Ray Andraka wrote: Quote: If your POH supplement for the autopilot has operating limitations, it isn't legal to use contrary to those limitations. Mine doesn't allow use of the autopilot with the landing lights on, for example. You won't find these anywhere in the AIM or FARs, but they are just as binding as one of the regulations. But it is one of the regulations...91.9 causes anything that's in the flight manual limitations to have the force of regulation. I've pointed this out to McMuffin before but he refuses to learn. 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