AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Local community college wants to cut flight instructor pay. Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviation (Students) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Jim Logajan Guest Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor pay. The local paper has an article about the local community college that wants to cut the pay of its flight instructors: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2007/04/10/b1.cr.lccpilots.0410.p1.php?section=cityregion Among other tidbits, I was surprised to see this: "Flight technology is popular, with about a dozen instructors and more than 100 students. The demand for pilots is so strong that most students get jobs soon after completing the degree and flight hour requirements." Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p On Apr 10, 7:38 pm, Jim Logajan <Jam...@Lugoj.com> wrote: Quote: The local paper has an article about the local community college that wants to cut the pay of its flight instructors: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2007/04/10/b1.cr.lccpilots.0410.p1.... Among other tidbits, I was surprised to see this: "Flight technology is popular, with about a dozen instructors and more than 100 students. The demand for pilots is so strong that most students get jobs soon after completing the degree and flight hour requirements." If CFIs are willing to work for less than it would be irresponsible to continue to pay them above market with tax payer's money. If they would be paying below market they will be sitting there with no CFIs. -Robert, CFII Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p Newps writes: Quote: No. You are worth what somebody is willing to pay. Don't like it? Move. Unions didn't come into existence because of low pay but primarily because of working conditions. It's not that simple. Sometimes a heterogenous labor pool can include people who are willing to work for less than a subsistence wage, competing with people who cannot afford to do so. The former pull down wages for the latter, causing problems. And the former are not really being paid a living wage, so it's not necessarily a fair arrangement. Unions sometimes protect against this as well. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p On Apr 11, 10:14 am, "Morgans" <jsmor...@charterJUNK.net> wrote: Quote: "Robert M. Gary" <N70...@gmail.com> wrote If CFIs are willing to work for less than it would be irresponsible to continue to pay them above market with tax payer's money. If they would be paying below market they will be sitting there with no CFIs. Attitudes like that is why unions were formed. A professional working a full day should make a decent living, not a welfare living. -- Jim in NC Attitudes like that is what brought us the Soviet Union, Cuba, and China. If there are qualified people who want to teach there so bad that they are willing to work there for less than living wage (which is what grad students do all the time), then it is irresponsible to spend taxpayers (or owner's) money paying them more. If you raise the wage above market you just end up with a waiting list of CFIs who cannot work there because someone already got that "uniion gig", even if he's willing to work there at reduced rate for the experience. i.e. if you screw up supply/demand you end up with waiting lists, ever see a bread line in Russia??? -Robert, MBA Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p On Apr 11, 12:27 pm, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> wrote: Quote: Newps writes: No. You are worth what somebody is willing to pay. Don't like it? Move. Unions didn't come into existence because of low pay but primarily because of working conditions. It's not that simple. Sometimes a heterogenous labor pool can include people who are willing to work for less than a subsistence wage, competing with people who cannot afford to do so. The former pull down wages for the latter, causing problems. And the former are not really being paid a living wage, so it's not necessarily a fair arrangement. Unions sometimes protect against this as well. Why is it not fair to employ someone at a rate that they agree to???? Some people work for things other than just money (flight time for instance). -Robert Back to top Little Endian Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p Quote: cannot work there because someone already got that "uniion gig", even if he's willing to work there at reduced rate for the experience. i.e. if you screw up supply/demand you end up with waiting lists, ever see a bread line in Russia??? The only case where I support tax payer funding is for GA related expenses. Even though I hate the "long lines" on final at my GA airport I just grin and bear it. Back to top Maxwell Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p "Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:7jdq13dphi4ag7060ctegfmqj86hvfgn63 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... Quote: Newps writes: No. You are worth what somebody is willing to pay. Don't like it? Move. Unions didn't come into existence because of low pay but primarily because of working conditions. It's not that simple. Sometimes a heterogenous labor pool can include people who are willing to work for less than a subsistence wage, competing with people who cannot afford to do so. The former pull down wages for the latter, causing problems. And the former are not really being paid a living wage, so it's not necessarily a fair arrangement. Unions sometimes protect against this as well. Have you ever been a union member? Back to top John Galban Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:12 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p On Apr 11, 10:14 am, "Morgans" <jsmor...@charterJUNK.net> wrote: Quote: A professional working a full day should make a decent living, not a welfare living. That would be nice, but you have to keep in mind that entry level jobs often pay a low wage. Flight instruction is an entry level job in the airline pilot field. The position is mostly populated by people building time in order to move to the next rung on the ladder. You can get qualifications for the job in less than a year, and there are large numbers of people who are thusly qualified that will do the job almost for free. This is not what most people think about when they think of "a professional". Don't get me wrong. I have a great respect for flight instructors and the sacrifices they make, but I also realize that they are in it for the experience and will drop flight instruction as soon as the first freight dog job comes along. True professional flight instructors do exist. I know several of them. They charge about triple what the time builder charges and it's worth it. The ones I know make a pretty good living from it. I've never heard onen of them complain about low wages. John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180) Back to top gatt Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p "Jim Logajan" <JamesL (AT) Lugoj (DOT) com> wrote in message news:Xns990EC788F76JamesLLugojcom (AT) 216 (DOT) 168.3.30... Quote: The local paper has an article about the local community college that wants to cut the pay of its flight instructors: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2007/04/10/b1.cr.lccpilots.0410.p1.php?section=cityregion Among other tidbits, I was surprised to see this: "Flight technology is popular, with about a dozen instructors and more than 100 students. The demand for pilots is so strong that most students get jobs soon after completing the degree and flight hour requirements." ROTFL! Also "To do that, students typically enroll in an aviation bachelor's program at Oregon State University and take jobs at Lane as flight instructors. They earn money and log flight hours while finishing their upper-division courses." As a graduate of Oregon State University, I'm curious as to why I've never seen an "aviation program" this side of AFROTC. -c Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p Robert M. Gary writes: Quote: Why is it not fair to employ someone at a rate that they agree to???? Because some people benefit from other income, and others don't. A student who still lives with Mom and Dad may be able to work for nothing, but if he does so, that eliminates a position for someone who can only work for enough money to support himself. There are lots of occupations in which this dynamic applies, and it drives salaries so low that some people must live in poverty. Quote: Some people work for things other than just money (flight time for instance). Nobody does that if he must support himself with the work. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top Mxsmanic Guest Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p Maxwell writes: Quote: Have you ever been a union member? I'm not sure. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. Back to top Maxwell Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p "B A R R Y" <beech23pilot (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:j3tTh.7932$Kd3.1158 (AT) newssvr27 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... Quote: Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote: Working all those numbers in my head isn't real life. I'd fuck it up for sure. As would I! <g I screw up deposit slips all the time... He basically just sat back and collected his time while testing my long division skills. But that was only the beginning. He was about 25, had 250 hours. We wasted more than two hours on the oral, 95% of which I will never use. Much more of a test than a discussion or instruction. I knew I had problems when I handed him my original certificate from 1972 and he looked real puzzled and said, "is this really a pilots license". Back to top RST Engineering Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p You could have really pissed him off if you said, "No, sonny, that's a pilot CERTIFICATE." Jim "Maxwell" <luv2fly99 (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote in message news:jtvTh.440645$Ju2.7034 (AT) newsfe16 (DOT) lga... Quote: I knew I had problems when I handed him my original certificate from 1972 and he looked real puzzled and said, "is this really a pilots license". Back to top Andrew Sarangan Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:52 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p On Apr 12, 12:00 pm, "Matt Barrow" <mbar...@performancehomes.com> wrote: Quote: "Andrew Sarangan" <asaran...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1176392209.336328.187070 (AT) n76g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com... From my experience, I agree with the comment that "flight instructors aren't faculty in the usual sense". Faculty have to demonstrate intellect, creativity and insights, none of which are required from a CFI. From what we're seing in academia, those qualities are not needed for faculty, either. Actually, those qualities are required in order to become a tenured faculty, and it is evaluated by peers outside the institution. But some institutions may not enforce these standards. On the other hand, CFI's are not expected to demonstrate those qualities at any point in their career. One big difference is, most people in academia will not be able to survive without innovation and creativity. But in flight instruction, we are trained to follow procedures, exactly as written, such as POH, FARs, and FAA documents. A pilot who displays 'creativity' is quickly branded as risky or stupid. As a result, many misconceptions get passed down generations without anyone challenging them. Back to top Peter Dohm Guest Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Local community college wants to cut flight instructor p Quote: "Maxwell" <luv2fly99 (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote in message news:jtvTh.440645$Ju2.7034 (AT) newsfe16 (DOT) lga... I knew I had problems when I handed him my original certificate from 1972 and he looked real puzzled and said, "is this really a pilots license". "RST Engineering" <jim (AT) rstengineering (DOT) com> wrote in message news:131t6i780qeg761 (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com... Quote: You could have really pissed him off if you said, "No, sonny, that's a pilot CERTIFICATE." Jim One of the long time Wings hosts in southern Florida frequently made a point of that difference. Peter Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviation (Students) All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.