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EridanMan
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 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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Are VOR's all MH based?
I was flightplanning the other day (I must be one of the few poor
souls left who flight-plans by hand... I guess I just haven't been
flying long enough to get sick of it yet, I consider my flight
planning to be 'part of the experience') And I got to thinking-
Why in gods name are VOR's Mag heading based?
I know, ideally, that means that you can sync your DG and your VOR
indicator to fly to a waypoint... except that most VOR's around here
have long since fallen behind Magnetic drift... so - now, not only do
you have to flightplan in True Heading, convert to Mag Heading to get
your vectors, THEN you have to get the corrective factor for each of
the VOR's your using for navigation and note that as well? huh?
I'm sorry... call me lazy, but if your not going to keep them all
updated with Magnetic north, then at least stick them on a standard
baseline... True North, for example?
/rantoff. |
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Mxsmanic
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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EridanMan writes:
| Quote: | I'm sorry... call me lazy, but if your not going to keep them all
updated with Magnetic north, then at least stick them on a standard
baseline... True North, for example?
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I think aviation should have started moving towards true north for everything
long ago, but that's just me. The constant shifting of the magnetic poles
(which is accelerating) means perpetual updates for anything that depends on
magnetic north (and you can't use magnetic south, because it isn't even
exactly opposite magnetic north).
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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TheSmokingGnu
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote:
| Quote: | In rec.aviation.piloting TheSmokingGnu <anonymityisavirtue (AT) 1111011010011 (DOT) com> wrote:
But why do that if the winds you get in a preflight are already in MH?
Wouldn't it be simpler to calc your MH's, and then use the corrective
factors you need to find the "real" radial you should follow?
The radial to follow doesn't change with the wind, only your heading.
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I know.
1. Find your MH (where you'll be pointing said nose initially)
2. Find the radials you want to use (charted, +/- the correction factor)
3. Tune radials, point nose.
4. Salt and pepper to taste.
TheSmokingGnu |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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In rec.aviation.piloting TheSmokingGnu <anonymityisavirtue (AT) 1111011010011 (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote:
If the drift is sufficient ( 2 or 3 degrees, I forget the number; it's
in the AIM ) they are supposed to be recalibrated.
FAR 91.171, VOR Equipment checks.
4 degree variation if using a VOT or other ground-based testing
sites/equipment.
6 degrees if using a designated airborne test point, or using a dead
reckoning technique.
No more than 4 degrees variation between the radios of a dual VOR setup.
Nothing about the accuracy of the VOR station itself, though. If they're
really bad, I would file a report with the nearest FSDO.
TheSmokingGnu
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I thought I saw somewhere in there a spec for the VOR station drift.
Maybe it was somewhere else; so many regs, circulars, advisory letters,
so little time...
I know there are limits somewhere.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
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Robert M. Gary
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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On Apr 3, 8:33 pm, "EridanMan" <scott.cr...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Are VOR's all MH based?
I was flightplanning the other day (I must be one of the few poor
souls left who flight-plans by hand... I guess I just haven't been
flying long enough to get sick of it yet, I consider my flight
planning to be 'part of the experience') And I got to thinking-
Why in gods name are VOR's Mag heading based?
I know, ideally, that means that you can sync your DG and your VOR
indicator to fly to a waypoint... except that most VOR's around here
have long since fallen behind Magnetic drift... so - now, not only do
you have to flightplan in True Heading, convert to Mag Heading to get
your vectors, THEN you have to get the corrective factor for each of
the VOR's your using for navigation and note that as well? huh?
I'm sorry... call me lazy, but if your not going to keep them all
updated with Magnetic north, then at least stick them on a standard
baseline... True North, for example?
/rantoff.
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My compass is MH.
-Robert |
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TheSmokingGnu
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote:
| Quote: | If the drift is sufficient ( 2 or 3 degrees, I forget the number; it's
in the AIM ) they are supposed to be recalibrated.
|
FAR 91.171, VOR Equipment checks.
4 degree variation if using a VOT or other ground-based testing
sites/equipment.
6 degrees if using a designated airborne test point, or using a dead
reckoning technique.
No more than 4 degrees variation between the radios of a dual VOR setup.
Nothing about the accuracy of the VOR station itself, though. If they're
really bad, I would file a report with the nearest FSDO.
TheSmokingGnu |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | EridanMan writes:
I'm sorry... call me lazy, but if your not going to keep them all
updated with Magnetic north, then at least stick them on a standard
baseline... True North, for example?
I think aviation should have started moving towards true north for everything
long ago, but that's just me. The constant shifting of the magnetic poles
(which is accelerating) means perpetual updates for anything that depends on
magnetic north (and you can't use magnetic south, because it isn't even
exactly opposite magnetic north).
|
Where do you get a true north compass?
Your comment about magnetic south being unusable is just asinine.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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In rec.aviation.piloting TheSmokingGnu <anonymityisavirtue (AT) 1111011010011 (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | EridanMan wrote:
Are VOR's all MH based?
Because all of the pilot's navigational faculties are magnetic, too.
most VOR's around here
have long since fallen behind Magnetic drift...
By how much, and where is "here", if you don't mind my asking?
you have to flightplan in True Heading, convert to Mag Heading to get
your vectors, THEN you have to get the corrective factor for each of
the VOR's your using for navigation and note that as well? huh?
But why do that if the winds you get in a preflight are already in MH?
Wouldn't it be simpler to calc your MH's, and then use the corrective
factors you need to find the "real" radial you should follow?
TheSmokingGnu
PS: Don't worry, I still do things by hand, too.
|
The radial to follow doesn't change with the wind, only your heading.
If you are following a VOR radial, you can ignore wind altogether
and just point the nose in whatever direction keeps the needle
centered.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
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TheSmokingGnu
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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EridanMan wrote:
| Quote: | Are VOR's all MH based?
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Because all of the pilot's navigational faculties are magnetic, too.
| Quote: | most VOR's around here
have long since fallen behind Magnetic drift...
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By how much, and where is "here", if you don't mind my asking?
| Quote: | you have to flightplan in True Heading, convert to Mag Heading to get
your vectors, THEN you have to get the corrective factor for each of
the VOR's your using for navigation and note that as well? huh?
|
But why do that if the winds you get in a preflight are already in MH?
Wouldn't it be simpler to calc your MH's, and then use the corrective
factors you need to find the "real" radial you should follow?
TheSmokingGnu
PS: Don't worry, I still do things by hand, too. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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In rec.aviation.piloting EridanMan <scott.cragg (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | Are VOR's all MH based?
I was flightplanning the other day (I must be one of the few poor
souls left who flight-plans by hand... I guess I just haven't been
flying long enough to get sick of it yet, I consider my flight
planning to be 'part of the experience') And I got to thinking-
Why in gods name are VOR's Mag heading based?
|
You got a true north compass in your airplane?
| Quote: | I know, ideally, that means that you can sync your DG and your VOR
indicator to fly to a waypoint... except that most VOR's around here
have long since fallen behind Magnetic drift... so - now, not only do
you have to flightplan in True Heading, convert to Mag Heading to get
your vectors, THEN you have to get the corrective factor for each of
the VOR's your using for navigation and note that as well? huh?
|
Center the needle and keep it centered?
| Quote: | I'm sorry... call me lazy, but if your not going to keep them all
updated with Magnetic north, then at least stick them on a standard
baseline... True North, for example?
|
If the drift is sufficient ( 2 or 3 degrees, I forget the number; it's
in the AIM ) they are supposed to be recalibrated.
The uncertainty in the wind drift angle is usually a lot more than
that.
There are lots of free flight planners that do all that for you.
Golden Eagle for DUATS corrects for everything but your compass
error and is free.
--
Jim Pennino
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DR
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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Mxsmanic wrote:
| Quote: |
There
are plenty of spots on charts where the compass will be 6-8 degrees off even
from the already irrgular declination over larger areas.
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LOL! My BS meter just went off scale! Declination? Lines of magnetic
_variation_ are plotted on VP charts and better than 0.5 degree accuracy
(except at local anomalies which are only noted in nautical charts as
far as I've seen so far). Declination in navigation is actually
something else but I'll let you googgle for it.
Cheers MC |
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DR
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com wrote:
| Quote: |
You do understand there are real, flying, airplanes with no electrical
system, don't you?
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Err, no I don't think he does. He plugs his airplane(s) into the wall
and waits for it to boot up.
Cheers |
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Mxsmanic
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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EridanMan writes:
| Quote: | The system is a rube goldberg contraption with an instant-on kill
switch.
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There is no instant-on kill switch. It takes quite a bit of time to send
commands to all the satellites.
| Quote: | Wait until someone launches a home-made GPS guided cruise
missile into Washington DC, watch them flick the switch, and see what
happens. Just hope it doesn't happen at night, and you're not in the
air at the time.
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They can't do that any more. It would be a worse disaster to turn it off than
it would be to just let it run, for both military and civilian use.
| Quote: | It also requires constant, very expensive maintenance, a complex
receiver in good working order, and as I mentioned, can be turned off
at the push of a button. None of these are traits you want for you
primary navigation system.
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It cannot be turned off at the push of a button. I'm not aware of any
constant maintenance requirement. Databases have to be updated by a
monopolistic price-gouging private enterprise, but that's a separate issue.
| Quote: | The simplest, fastest and most dependable (in VMC) way of finding true
north (or any form of navigation) is simple spatial awareness and
pilotage. A good chart, and a good eye.
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I wouldn't trust those.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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Mxsmanic
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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jimp (AT) specsol (DOT) spam.sux.com writes:
| Quote: | If you want to go to and from true and magnetic, you need a chart to
get the local difference.
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If you want to do anything, you need more than a compass.
| Quote: | If all you want to do is go in some particular direction until you
can see a recognizable landmark, all you need is a compass.
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In order to recognize the landmark, you need something more than a compass.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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Mxsmanic
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Why The Hell... (random rant) |
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Tim writes:
| Quote: | Tell that to Charlie Lindbergh.
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Charles Lindbergh had not only multiple compasses but charts and a timekeeping
device. He never would have gotten anywhere with just a compass alone.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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