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 Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: Settling with power Re: Chopper crash |
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The OTHER Kevin in San Di
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Settling with power Re: Chopper crash |
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On Thu, 25 May 2006 22:06:35 GMT, boB <akita77XXXX (AT) exciteXXX (DOT) com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Just a bit now, more later if you are interested. We were flying an
AH-1G to be a static display at the Ohio State Fair. We found Columbus
just fine but the directions we got prior to the flight was "It's
located in the North-West part of Columbus and we would see it
immediately when we approached the NW part of the city. We did have a
sectional and landed to ask directions. The Sheriff finally told us
where the Fair was actually located.
|
Didja ask to see his badge or gun permit? :)
| Quote: | As for the guns, we had to remove them each night and secure them at the
police station. We thought it had already been coordinated but we found
out it was at a different Police Station. The on-duty desk clerk took
one look and disappeared from the office. We finally got permission to
secure the guns there each night. It's a bit boring once told but it's
one of my memories from "way back then"
My only advice to Kevin is to always be alert, know that something will
happen that will require his training to kick in and there will be some
memories that he will never forget.
|
I've got quite a few memories I'll never forget... Some of them were
stupid mistakes on my part, one scared the snot out of my daughter
(plug wire shorted out and the helo started vibrating prety good about
3 miles from the field) and the rest are things like solos, check
rides, my 1st "perfect" 180 auto etc..
| Quote: | But Kevin.... I feel for you about paying the loan back. And tell you
there are hour building jobs out there. At Papillon Grand Canyon
Helicopters I saw a female get hired with only R22 time and going to the
Bell course on the B206 turbine helicopter class. I never asked about
her certificate and hours but it couldn't be too many hours. Flying the
Canyon gets SO boring but definitely is an hour builder.
|
Yeah, the loan isn't too bad. Just a tick over $400/month. I just
got a raise which is about that much each month so I figure the
company is paying it back now.  I toss in a few extra bucks when I
can and that extra bit goes right to the principal..
I've got a friend who knows everyone there is to know in aviation and
he's already got me interviews lined up for when I get my CFI-H. He
did talk to Papillion last week about getting me in there but I need
about 400 more PIC hours before they'd hire me. Damned insurance
companies... Did PHI send her to the Bell course or was that on her
dime?
| Quote: | PS... Send a picture with your resume. For some reason I found out I
was hired because I did send the picture. It at least causes the Chief
Pilot to look twice and may be the difference between getting hired or not.
|
haha, that'll knock me out of the running.. I wonder how many chief
pilots would see my ponytail and say to themselves, "yeah, I wanna
hire that guy.." I guess I'm going to have to cut my hair for the 1st
time in about 12 years. Last time I cut it was for a job and my 1st
day I found out virtually every other network engineer in the place
was a long hair. Oh well.. It's getting grey anyways - damned kids.
lol |
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boB
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Settling with power Re: Chopper crash |
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The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 25 May 2006 22:06:35 GMT, boB <akita77XXXX (AT) exciteXXX (DOT) com
wrote:
Yeah, the loan isn't too bad. Just a tick over $400/month. I just
got a raise which is about that much each month so I figure the
company is paying it back now. I toss in a few extra bucks when I
can and that extra bit goes right to the principal..
I've got a friend who knows everyone there is to know in aviation and
he's already got me interviews lined up for when I get my CFI-H. He
did talk to Papillion last week about getting me in there but I need
about 400 more PIC hours before they'd hire me. Damned insurance
companies... Did PHI send her to the Bell course or was that on her
dime?
|
I didn't ask. But I assumed, by the way she was talking that she went on
her own. I guess it was an investment which paid off. Papillon goes
through several pilots a season. Chuck was the Chief Pilot back then
(damn, it was 10 years ago) and he was left holding the bag so to speak
when pilots up and went with short notice since he recommended whether
to hire or not. After a couple months I received a request for an
interview with PHI but I asked them if they would put a hold on my
interview because if I left, Chuck would be left holding another bag so
to speak. It worked out great in the end because I met my wife when
she booked a flight on my aircraft. If I had gone to PHI I would never
have met her. Almost at the end of the season Chuck asked me if I would
like to work full time. I told him I would sleep on it and finally
decided to move to Germany for a while with Gabriella. She was a German
tourist on a tour of the southwest USA when I met her. Chuck told me he
could give me a few months off but I was expecting to be in Stuttgart
for much longer than that. My Army retirement was/is more per month than
I was getting at the Canyon anyway. But after the first year the pay at
Papillon went up quite a bit. It would be a great job for hour building
and not bad money after the first year. Very good people there, (at
least 10 years ago) :)
PS.. I gotta say there was one bad thing flying the Canyon. When it got
windy - 40 knots or so - the turbulence was "disturbing". I had never
had turbulence slam me sideways into the door before flying there. One
day the company asked me on the company freq how bad the bumps were on
the long route and I told them I usually liked having control of the
aircraft most of the time. They shut down the long route. There were
many a scream in my aircraft during the windy season.
--
boB
Wing 70
U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK) |
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B4RT
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Settling with power Re: Chopper crash |
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"boB" <akita77XXXX (AT) exciteXXX (DOT) com> wrote in message news:vUAdg.60153
| Quote: | I didn't ask. But I assumed, by the way she was talking that she went on
her own. I guess it was an investment which paid off.
|
This is not a bad idea. a 206B Transistion costs $9000 and takes 5 days. Its
worth every penny even if you never fly a 206 again. You'll learn _real_
stuff, not just the pantywaisted version of stuff reqd to get a ticket these
days. All the IPs there are as good as it gets in the rotorcraft world.
Its not uncommon for a smart pro-pilot to pay for his own transistion
training. We're overly familiar with the corporate jet world, and a lot of
guys/gals go to Flight-Saftety on their own dime. If you think 206
transition is expensive, imagine paying $20K out-of-pocket for a single jet
type-rating.
The other advantage to paying yourself is that you wont be hamstrung by the
employer. Most companies will keep you on a short leash by either requring
you to do mundane stuff for a long time before theyll pay for the Type,
and/or by binding you up contractually after they pay for it. This weird
form of endentured servitude is really common among newbie first officers in
aviation. For all practical purposes, turbine helicopters might as well
require a Type rating, cuz you'll never fly one unless you've gone to
transistion training and yearly re-current in each type. The 206 "Type" will
put you in a different postition when looking for a job. ( I'm not saying it
will get you one though, typically you'll need about 1200 Rotor and 200+
Turbine to get a turbine job. )
Bart |
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The OTHER Kevin in San Di
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Is this for real? |
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On 25 May 2006 11:01:28 -0700, "Mike Rotor Nowak" <rotor (AT) cambo (DOT) org>
wrote:
| Quote: | We got to meet the pilot (DJ I think was his name) at HAI... he said
the updrafts were so intense, the collective was bottomed out at the
hover, and to decend, he had to do nose dives (pretty dramatic on the
video). The power to hover up there was virtually nil... hell, he did
a toe-in the entire time, never set it down fully.
They had the chopper there too... not highly modified at all, just a
factory B3 with a flight recording computer and some cameras. No crazy
stripping jobs, it still had all the seats... and Eurocopter made sure
to flaunt that the configuration on the stand was the same as it was
during the attempt.
|
OK, I stand corrected. **WOW!!** |
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The OTHER Kevin in San Di
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Settling with power Re: Chopper crash |
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On Fri, 26 May 2006 08:01:34 -0400, "B4RT" <noahbody (AT) nospam (DOT) org>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"boB" <akita77XXXX (AT) exciteXXX (DOT) com> wrote in message news:vUAdg.60153
I didn't ask. But I assumed, by the way she was talking that she went on
her own. I guess it was an investment which paid off.
This is not a bad idea. a 206B Transistion costs $9000 and takes 5 days. Its
worth every penny even if you never fly a 206 again. You'll learn _real_
stuff, not just the pantywaisted version of stuff reqd to get a ticket these
days. All the IPs there are as good as it gets in the rotorcraft world.
|
I thought it was a little over twice that.. $9k isn't a bad deal.
it's not an cheap as Robinson's $400 3 day course tho. :)
| Quote: | Its not uncommon for a smart pro-pilot to pay for his own transistion
training. We're overly familiar with the corporate jet world, and a lot of
guys/gals go to Flight-Saftety on their own dime. If you think 206
transition is expensive, imagine paying $20K out-of-pocket for a single jet
type-rating.
|
Ouch...
| Quote: | The other advantage to paying yourself is that you wont be hamstrung by the
employer. Most companies will keep you on a short leash by either requring
you to do mundane stuff for a long time before theyll pay for the Type,
and/or by binding you up contractually after they pay for it.
|
Yeah, that's pretty typical. I used to work for a chop that said
they'd pay for my Novell Netware certification, but I'd have to stick
with them for two years after I got my cert. I said no thanks, I'll
do it on my own.
| Quote: | This weird
form of endentured servitude is really common among newbie first officers in
aviation. For all practical purposes, turbine helicopters might as well
require a Type rating, cuz you'll never fly one unless you've gone to
transistion training and yearly re-current in each type. The 206 "Type" will
put you in a different postition when looking for a job. ( I'm not saying it
will get you one though, typically you'll need about 1200 Rotor and 200+
Turbine to get a turbine job. )
|
Boy, it just keeps getting better and better... |
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Steve R
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Is this for real? |
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"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:frae72h2tt4fsm8c5s6kmej93ovo9huqrm (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
| Quote: | On 25 May 2006 11:01:28 -0700, "Mike Rotor Nowak" <rotor (AT) cambo (DOT) org
wrote:
We got to meet the pilot (DJ I think was his name) at HAI... he said
the updrafts were so intense, the collective was bottomed out at the
hover, and to decend, he had to do nose dives (pretty dramatic on the
video). The power to hover up there was virtually nil... hell, he did
a toe-in the entire time, never set it down fully.
They had the chopper there too... not highly modified at all, just a
factory B3 with a flight recording computer and some cameras. No crazy
stripping jobs, it still had all the seats... and Eurocopter made sure
to flaunt that the configuration on the stand was the same as it was
during the attempt.
OK, I stand corrected. **WOW!!**
|
Agreed! I have to ask though. My admittedly limited experience suggests
that completely bottoming the collective could cause some overspeed issues
with the main rotor. Did they make any comments on that?
Just wondering!
Fly Safe,
Steve R. |
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Steve R
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Settling with power Re: Chopper crash |
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"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:r0be72dp7ipgjtbkud8pbq2dj6t6ripqvi (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 26 May 2006 08:01:34 -0400, "B4RT" <noahbody (AT) nospam (DOT) org
wrote:
The other advantage to paying yourself is that you wont be hamstrung by
the
employer. Most companies will keep you on a short leash by either requring
you to do mundane stuff for a long time before theyll pay for the Type,
and/or by binding you up contractually after they pay for it.
Yeah, that's pretty typical. I used to work for a chop that said
they'd pay for my Novell Netware certification, but I'd have to stick
with them for two years after I got my cert. I said no thanks, I'll
do it on my own.
|
Very smart choice on your part. My work has been requiring new hires to
sign "pre-employment" contracts in order to be hired. "That" has blown up
in more than a few of their faces. Once they've got you under that
financial obligation, then they can treat you any way they want, figuring
there's nothing you can do about it.
It makes for a piss poor working environment and "very" unhappy employees! |
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JohnO
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Chopper crash |
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anybody43 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com wrote:
| Quote: | The "radome" may be a sonar dome. For operation
it will need I guess to be filled with water to effectively
couple the signal into and out of the water.
Is the helicopter supposed to fly with water in the
dome?
This one apparently tried to anyway.
|
I doubt it's sonar. ASW choppers drop sonobuoys. No reason to risk
being a sitting duck in a hot situation. |
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JP
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Chopper crash |
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The fairing under the nose is for a search radar antenna. The Mil-14 may
carry a dipping sonar, but if equipped with one, is said to be located
beneath the root of the tail boom.
http://avia.russian.ee/helicopters_eng/mi-14-r.html
JP
<anybody43 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in
message:1148242884.458920.41850 (AT) u72g2000cwu (DOT) googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
The "radome" may be a sonar dome. For operation
it will need I guess to be filled with water to effectively
couple the signal into and out of the water.
Is the helicopter supposed to fly with water in the
dome?
This one apparently tried to anyway.
|
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The OTHER Kevin in San Di
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Is this for real? |
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On Fri, 26 May 2006 23:58:02 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13 (AT) houston (DOT) rr.nospam.com> wrote:
| Quote: | OK, I stand corrected. **WOW!!**
Agreed! I have to ask though. My admittedly limited experience suggests
that completely bottoming the collective could cause some overspeed issues
with the main rotor. Did they make any comments on that?
|
I don't think it would. The engine throttles back as you lower
collective.. I'd think the high winds at the summit might do more for
overspeeding than anything.. |
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The OTHER Kevin in San Di
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Settling with power Re: Chopper crash |
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On Sat, 27 May 2006 00:05:31 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13 (AT) houston (DOT) rr.nospam.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Yeah, that's pretty typical. I used to work for a chop that said
they'd pay for my Novell Netware certification, but I'd have to stick
with them for two years after I got my cert. I said no thanks, I'll
do it on my own.
Very smart choice on your part. My work has been requiring new hires to
sign "pre-employment" contracts in order to be hired. "That" has blown up
in more than a few of their faces. Once they've got you under that
financial obligation, then they can treat you any way they want, figuring
there's nothing you can do about it.
It makes for a piss poor working environment and "very" unhappy employees!
|
Yep. I won't sign an agreement like that with anyone. That sends up
a red flag with me immediately. "Hi, we're a bunch of pricks and
we're going to treat you like shit for a minimum of one year.." Yeah,
no thanks.
I'm facing something like that at work now. There's been some recent
turnover at the top and I'm in a much needed position (I'm not
irreplaceable, but there's nobody in the shop that can do my job
anywhere CLOSE to how I do it and it would take several months and a
VERY sharp individual to come in and wear all the hats I do and wear
them as well. I have managed to garner more money with all the
shakeups and having to shoulder more responsibilities, but they want
me to commit to at least a year. I told 'em I'd stick around until I
finished my heli training and then "we'll see"..
Now, if they were to buy a company helicopter..... |
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Steve R
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Is this for real? |
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"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:1mei72llhgc29ov1ml3e9lbf71a667q27t (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 26 May 2006 23:58:02 GMT, "Steve R"
srhodes13 (AT) houston (DOT) rr.nospam.com> wrote:
OK, I stand corrected. **WOW!!**
Agreed! I have to ask though. My admittedly limited experience suggests
that completely bottoming the collective could cause some overspeed issues
with the main rotor. Did they make any comments on that?
I don't think it would. The engine throttles back as you lower
collective.. I'd think the high winds at the summit might do more for
overspeeding than anything..
|
That was my point. He said the pilot had to bottom the collective, just to
maintain altitude. Doing that puts the rotor in an autorotative state and,
I thought, would cause an overspeed. "If" that's true, it doesn't seem like
the pilot would be able to maintain altitude under those circumstances?
Was just wondering! :-)
Fly Safe,
Steve R. |
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Guy Alcala
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Is this for real? |
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The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
| Quote: | On 25 May 2006 11:01:28 -0700, "Mike Rotor Nowak" <rotor (AT) cambo (DOT) org
wrote:
We got to meet the pilot (DJ I think was his name) at HAI... he said
the updrafts were so intense, the collective was bottomed out at the
hover, and to decend, he had to do nose dives (pretty dramatic on the
video). The power to hover up there was virtually nil... hell, he did
a toe-in the entire time, never set it down fully.
They had the chopper there too... not highly modified at all, just a
factory B3 with a flight recording computer and some cameras. No crazy
stripping jobs, it still had all the seats... and Eurocopter made sure
to flaunt that the configuration on the stand was the same as it was
during the attempt.
|
That contradicts what Eurocopter themselves said at the time (published in
AvLeak). IIRR, they'd stripped the seats, the cabin insulation, steps on
the skids, nav lights, basically anything that wasn't absolutely necessary.
Going from memory T/O fuel was 60-80kg. (I forget the exact figure), and
flight time to the top from Lukla (9,350 ft., 20-odd miles away) was
somewhere in the range of 12-17 minutes; total round-trip including the 3' +
spent on top was 25-40 minutes. Depending on the report, the a/c was either
120 or 160 kg. lighter than stock.
The thing that cheeses me off is that landing on the top with just a single
person on board is basically a stunt. A few days previously they'd landed at
the South Col aka Camp IV (7,906m/25,938 ft.) as a warmup, and rather than
taking the opportunity to demonstrate some practical utility by landing and
taking off there with two people (or equivalent weight) on board, they just
had the pilot. As well as being the highest camp, from which climbers leave
for and return from the summit on the normal Southeast Ridge route, the
South Col is about the highest spot from which you could realistically
evacuate someone in a fair variety of weather conditions. It's also about
the highest place where major medical attention can be available, and it
avoids having to carry/lower someone down the Lhotse face by hand to the
Western Cwm, a slow and hazardous undertaking.
When the Indians set the old landing and takeoff record with the Cheetah
(license-built Lama) back in 1969 at 24,600 feet, they did it with two crew
on board, and did the same when they broke that a month or so previous to
the Eurocopter Everest stunt by landing and taking off at a density altitude
of 25,135 feet, using a Cheetah equipped with a new engine with which
they're considering upgrading their fleet.
I would have been far more impressed by Eurocopter if they'd landed at the
South Col again with an extra 80kg. or so on board, rather than on top with
just the pilot. A Eurocopter type claimed at the time that they could have
easily landed on top with an extra person on board, but talk is cheap. What
is clear is that in most conditions an AS350B3 should be able to rescue
climbers from just about anywhere in the Western Cwm, i.e. Camps I and II
which are both between 6 and 7,000m; helo evacuation from Camp III on the
Lhotse Face is almost certainly not an option. In 1998 Colonel KC Madan
managed to bring out two climbers, one at a time, from the Western Cwm after
they'd been brought down from Camp 4, using an AS350B2 that was operating
well over its certification height, so a B3 would provide a useful
improvement on that in any case, and probably could get to the South Col and
back with two onboard at least some of the time. But Nepal has more
pressing issues at the moment than buying a new helo to rescue climbers.
Guy |
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The OTHER Kevin in San Di
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Is this for real? |
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On Sun, 28 May 2006 21:49:15 GMT, Guy Alcala
<g_alcala (AT) junkpostoffice (DOT) pacbell.net> wrote:
| Quote: | That contradicts what Eurocopter themselves said at the time (published in
AvLeak). IIRR, they'd stripped the seats, the cabin insulation, steps on
the skids, nav lights, basically anything that wasn't absolutely necessary.
Going from memory T/O fuel was 60-80kg. (I forget the exact figure), and
flight time to the top from Lukla (9,350 ft., 20-odd miles away) was
somewhere in the range of 12-17 minutes; total round-trip including the 3' +
spent on top was 25-40 minutes. Depending on the report, the a/c was either
120 or 160 kg. lighter than stock.
|
This is very similar to what we heard through the aviation rumor mill
- including some talk at Heli Expo down in Dallas..
Ok, so now I take back my "wow"... |
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