AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Engines / undercarriage assemblies / Trawfynnydd (N Wales) F          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aircraft Restoration View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message server Guest Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:18 am    Post subject: Engines / undercarriage assemblies / Trawfynnydd (N Wales) F [ message unavailable ] Back to top Richard Lamb Guest Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:18 am    Post subject: Re: Engines / undercarriage assemblies / Trawfynnydd (N Wale wyrleybart (AT) netscape (DOT) net wrote: Quote: Hi Richard Sorry about not giving more info earlier - wife rushing me !!! I didn't take any pics as I hadn't got my camera with me. I imagine the truck was 8' wide and the stillages were within the width of the truck. The wing centres were probably about 8-9' above the deck of the lorry so were not large. The engines certainly weren't anything like the size of the P&Ws in the DC series (pic-linked), and the props were two bladed (I think) and were probably no more than 7' or 8' in diameter / length. It was fascinating to think of this piece of history sat in a layby - unattended !! I would have asked the lorry driver had he been there !! Thanks again. Phil Probably no way of knowing from the far side of the world. Could have been almost anything. It's fun stumbling across some ancient relic... Back to top Orval Fairbairn Guest Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Welding question - In article <rnfa5295puaqv7dnviubfb9e89mq6frvts (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>, Michael Horowitz <mhorowit (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: In preparation for doing some simple OA welding on a rudder, I've been practicing on some 4130 scrap. Since there is filler where it's not structurally important, I"ve been filing the excess material. All except one and it's as hard as if I were trying to file stainless. Is this an indication that I was using an oxidizing flame on that sample? - MIke If you fill with 4130, the weld will be hard -- and brittle. That is why you use regular welding rod on 4130 -- the thicker material in the weld relieves stress and keeps things good. Back to top Mike Guest Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - 'regular' welding rod? What's that? Not a 4130 rod for welding 4130? - Mike Back to top Orval Fairbairn Guest Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - In article <1146749235.896481.301610 (AT) j73g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, "Mike" <mhorowit (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: 'regular' welding rod? What's that? Not a 4130 rod for welding 4130? - Mike Nope 4130 rod for welding 4130 will require heat treat, or it will be brittle and crack. Use standard, off-the-shelf welding rod from your local welding supplier. Back to top Chuck Harris Guest Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - Hi Orval, I think what the OP is trying to get at, is there is no standard off the shelf welding rod. The most sold is probably 6010/6011. It requires a stitch welding technique, and tends to stick when starting. It makes strong deep all position welds that tend to be ugly. Not for beginners. The easiest to use is 6013, but it makes really pretty looking, flat position, non xray quality welds, and has little penetration. The most common low hydrogen rod is 7018, but it is tricky to use, and must be stored in an oven. It is used almost exclusively for all position, structural steel welding. And then there is a host of SS rods that some people like because of their easy welding characteristics, and the toughness of the weld. So, what do you mean when you state off-the-shelf? I would recommend 7018, and a whole bunch of practice. -Chuck Orval Fairbairn wrote: Quote: In article <1146749235.896481.301610 (AT) j73g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, "Mike" <mhorowit (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote: 'regular' welding rod? What's that? Not a 4130 rod for welding 4130? - Mike Nope 4130 rod for welding 4130 will require heat treat, or it will be brittle and crack. Use standard, off-the-shelf welding rod from your local welding supplier. Back to top Chuck Harris Guest Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - Orval Fairbairn wrote: Quote: In article <1146749235.896481.301610 (AT) j73g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, "Mike" <mhorowit (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote: 'regular' welding rod? What's that? Not a 4130 rod for welding 4130? - Mike Nope 4130 rod for welding 4130 will require heat treat, or it will be brittle and crack. Use standard, off-the-shelf welding rod from your local welding supplier. Oh, I forgot to mention, the welded material gets just as hot as the weld, so if you have cracking problems that require heat treatment, you are going to have problems regardless of the rod you use. Most of the time, cracking problems are hydrogen embrittlement, and are prevented by using a low hydrogen rod, such as the 7018,8018,9018... series of rods. -Chuck Back to top pbc76049 Guest Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - Chuck.. Decent advice for stick welding, but the question was about gas welding. There are a number of good filler rods for steel, and for small puddles with small tips, one of the best is ER70sXXX mig wire. This lets you place filler rod in the weld without chilling the puddle too hard with a larger diameter rod. 4130 rod in 4130 welds isn't the best idea and a softer filler material is advised. Rods for mild steel are preferred. Have a great day Scott "Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris (AT) erols (DOT) com> wrote in message news:8YednX1mJbzPDMbZRVn-vA (AT) rcn (DOT) net... Quote: Hi Orval, I think what the OP is trying to get at, is there is no standard off the shelf welding rod. The most sold is probably 6010/6011. It requires a stitch welding technique, and tends to stick when starting. It makes strong deep all position welds that tend to be ugly. Not for beginners. The easiest to use is 6013, but it makes really pretty looking, flat position, non xray quality welds, and has little penetration. The most common low hydrogen rod is 7018, but it is tricky to use, and must be stored in an oven. It is used almost exclusively for all position, structural steel welding. And then there is a host of SS rods that some people like because of their easy welding characteristics, and the toughness of the weld. So, what do you mean when you state off-the-shelf? I would recommend 7018, and a whole bunch of practice. -Chuck Back to top Chuck Harris Guest Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - Hi Scott, Now I understand the question. It is impossible to prevent hydrogen embrittlement when gas welding. A natural byproduct of the combustion of oxygen and acetylene is water vapor, which in the flame shows up as H+ ions. These H+ ions get mixed in with the molten steel, and form a mess. These H+ ions turn good steels into something that is full of glass hard fissures, and will always crack... sooner or later. Gas welding is really only suitable for mild steels. If all you have is a gas rig, and you need to connect good steels, like 4130, you should be brazing... which essentially is what you are doing when you use a mild steel filler (coat hanger wire). (don't really use coat hanger wire. Its a mystery steel. Its only operating requirement is the alloy must be cheap and soft) If you are trying to make a joint that is as strong as the base 4130 steel, you should be using a stronger filler steel, and a shielded arc process. The best would be TIG, or MIG. -Chuck pbc76049 wrote: Quote: Chuck.. Decent advice for stick welding, but the question was about gas welding. There are a number of good filler rods for steel, and for small puddles with small tips, one of the best is ER70sXXX mig wire. This lets you place filler rod in the weld without chilling the puddle too hard with a larger diameter rod. 4130 rod in 4130 welds isn't the best idea and a softer filler material is advised. Rods for mild steel are preferred. Have a great day Scott "Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris (AT) erols (DOT) com> wrote in message news:8YednX1mJbzPDMbZRVn-vA (AT) rcn (DOT) net... Hi Orval, I think what the OP is trying to get at, is there is no standard off the shelf welding rod. The most sold is probably 6010/6011. It requires a stitch welding technique, and tends to stick when starting. It makes strong deep all position welds that tend to be ugly. Not for beginners. The easiest to use is 6013, but it makes really pretty looking, flat position, non xray quality welds, and has little penetration. The most common low hydrogen rod is 7018, but it is tricky to use, and must be stored in an oven. It is used almost exclusively for all position, structural steel welding. And then there is a host of SS rods that some people like because of their easy welding characteristics, and the toughness of the weld. So, what do you mean when you state off-the-shelf? I would recommend 7018, and a whole bunch of practice. -Chuck Back to top Mike Anderson Guest Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: Welding question - On Mon, 08 May 2006 10:30:28 -0400, Chuck Harris wrote: < big snip > Quote: Hi Scott, Now I understand the question. It is impossible to prevent hydrogen embrittlement when gas welding. A natural byproduct of the combustion of oxygen and acetylene is water vapor, which in the flame shows up as H+ ions. These H+ ions get mixed in with the molten steel, and form a mess. These H+ ions turn good steels into something that is full of glass hard fissures, and will always crack... sooner or later. Gas welding is really only suitable for mild steels. If all you have is a gas rig, and you need to connect good steels, like 4130, you should be brazing... which essentially is what you are doing when you use a mild steel filler (coat hanger wire). (don't really use coat hanger wire. Its a mystery steel. Its only operating requirement is the alloy must be cheap and soft) If you are trying to make a joint that is as strong as the base 4130 steel, you should be using a stronger filler steel, and a shielded arc process. The best would be TIG, or MIG. -Chuck The desire to use TIG with a higher end rod and post heat treat is the best but the question is answered correctly for a repair in structural aircraft members where heat treatment is not possible would be with an ER70 rod and OA welding. It was only a few years ago that the FAA even addressed TIG in the AC43.13. Mike Back to top Chuck Harris Guest Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - Mike Anderson wrote: Quote: The desire to use TIG with a higher end rod and post heat treat is the best but the question is answered correctly for a repair in structural aircraft members where heat treatment is not possible would be with an ER70 rod and OA welding. It was only a few years ago that the FAA even addressed TIG in the AC43.13. Mike Here is what Linde says in the "The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook", p233: Talking of 4130 "chrome moly steel: "One of the more familiar applications of this material is in structural tubing for aircraft. In such structures the light gage base material is welded using a slightly excess acetylene flame and the normal steel welding technique. Although the strength of the weld metal in such a weld is lower per unit area than that of the base metal, the weld is made to develop the desired strength by increasing the normal reinforcement considerably. By following such a procedure, this "Chrome-Moly" base metal can be successfully welded. On the other hand, if a S.A.E. X-4130 rod were used in welding such structures or if an attempt were made to follow a similar procedure in X-4130 plate material 1/2 or 3/4 in. thick, the weld would not be at all successful." They then direct us on to Chapter 22 to discuss the correct welding technique for 4130. There, they spell out in depth the problems with welding an air hardening steel, such as 4130. They mention that most of these problems can be handled by preheating welding areas to relieve hidden stresses, and using a low carbon steel rod, similar to Norway iron. They specify Oxweld No. 7 as being the desired rod for tubing of less than 0.1" thickness. They then go on to say that for tubing greater than 0.1" thickness, you will need a stronger steel in your rod, and suggest Oxweld No. 1 with a recommendation of heat treatment. For more rigorous applications, they then recommend Oxweld No. 32 with a requirement of heat treatment. Going into Linde's appendixes, finds that the Oxweld No. 7 rod isn't even a steel rod, but rather a pure iron rod with a 45KPSI tensile strength. The No. 1 rod is a High Test Steel (low carbon steel), and the No. 32 is Chrome Moly Steel (eg. 4130). The ER70 mig wire is a 70KPSI tensile strength mild steel. It is the same filler steel as any of the E70xx rods. Linde's book would be a very good place to go if one wanted to learn how to properly OA weld 4130. -Chuck Back to top Mike Anderson Guest Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Welding question - On Sun, 21 May 2006 10:39:03 -0400, Chuck Harris wrote: Quote: Mike Anderson wrote: The desire to use TIG with a higher end rod and post heat treat is the best but the question is answered correctly for a repair in structural aircraft members where heat treatment is not possible would be with an ER70 rod and OA welding. It was only a few years ago that the FAA even addressed TIG in the AC43.13. Mike Here is what Linde says in the "The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook", p233: Talking of 4130 "chrome moly steel: "One of the more familiar applications of this material is in structural tubing for aircraft. In such structures the light gage base material is welded using a slightly excess acetylene flame and the normal steel welding technique. Although the strength of the weld metal in such a weld is lower per unit area than that of the base metal, the weld is made to develop the desired strength by increasing the normal reinforcement considerably. By following such a procedure, this "Chrome-Moly" base metal can be successfully welded. On the other hand, if a S.A.E. X-4130 rod were used in welding such structures or if an attempt were made to follow a similar procedure in X-4130 plate material 1/2 or 3/4 in. thick, the weld would not be at all successful." They then direct us on to Chapter 22 to discuss the correct welding technique for 4130. There, they spell out in depth the problems with welding an air hardening steel, such as 4130. They mention that most of these problems can be handled by preheating welding areas to relieve hidden stresses, and using a low carbon steel rod, similar to Norway iron. They specify Oxweld No. 7 as being the desired rod for tubing of less than 0.1" thickness. They then go on to say that for tubing greater than 0.1" thickness, you will need a stronger steel in your rod, and suggest Oxweld No. 1 with a recommendation of heat treatment. For more rigorous applications, they then recommend Oxweld No. 32 with a requirement of heat treatment. Going into Linde's appendixes, finds that the Oxweld No. 7 rod isn't even a steel rod, but rather a pure iron rod with a 45KPSI tensile strength. The No. 1 rod is a High Test Steel (low carbon steel), and the No. 32 is Chrome Moly Steel (eg. 4130). The ER70 mig wire is a 70KPSI tensile strength mild steel. It is the same filler steel as any of the E70xx rods. Linde's book would be a very good place to go if one wanted to learn how to properly OA weld 4130. -Chuck O.K., you are correct. I agree that learning the proper method of joining any material you work with is important and I haven't any idea what FSDO he will try to use or who will be signing the log book or the 337 if it turns into that big a job. It was foolish to answer without enough information.... Who is going to sign the work off? There is where the answer should be sought. Mike Back to top wesley marceaux Guest Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Welding question - This question , about welding with O,A is right . or should I say the answer . I have noticed while welding I tend to use just a little richer Acetylene. mixture to keep from oxidizing the weld . the bubbles and so on and even cracking is the result of my running too much oxygen .Too much heat will also do the same thing. now what I mean by that is too big a flame for the job.. This usually happens when I try and weld a thick piece to a thin piece , seems one tends to get too much heat ( the thin ) and pop and bubble and crack . I also have found , for myself of course , that welding with a 4130 rod to 4130 frame I will get cracks in the weld , and even on the sides .. seems to me that as the metal cools it draws up and that's when I get the cracks . Going back over my weld with the torch before it get too cold sometimes helps . but I have found that using a soft metal rod works best on a hard metal weld . Using a coat hanger wire once to patch a frame was proof enough for me. I started buying soft metal rods to weld 4130 and 4140 .. But I am not a tickler for exact and perfect welding . An aircraft bolt is soft and will stretch allot before it breaks as compared to a grade 8 hardened bolt . It's just I was reading and learning from all of you and I remembered from my experiences .I pray I did not over step my bounds here . Thanks for allowing me to butt in . wesmarso "Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris (AT) erols (DOT) com> wrote in message news:Cd2dnacWzNerD8bZnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d (AT) rcn (DOT) net... Quote: Orval Fairbairn wrote: In article <1146749235.896481.301610 (AT) j73g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>, "Mike" <mhorowit (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote: 'regular' welding rod? What's that? Not a 4130 rod for welding 4130? - Mike Nope 4130 rod for welding 4130 will require heat treat, or it will be brittle and crack. Use standard, off-the-shelf welding rod from your local welding supplier. Oh, I forgot to mention, the welded material gets just as hot as the weld, so if you have cracking problems that require heat treatment, you are going to have problems regardless of the rod you use. Most of the time, cracking problems are hydrogen embrittlement, and are prevented by using a low hydrogen rod, such as the 7018,8018,9018... series of rods. -Chuck Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aircraft Restoration All times are GMT Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.