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 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: Accuracy of GPS in Garmin 430/530 |
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Sam Spade
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy of GPS in Garmin 430/530 |
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
| Quote: | "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:Kt74g.174361$bm6.134909@fed1read04...
They are as primary nav for IFR.
Cite the applicable regulation.
Part 23 (for the type of aircraft we're talking about). A good avionics
shop can direct you to related ACs.
We're not talking about a type of aircraft, we're talking about use of
handheld GPS. Part 23 is not applicable.
So, it does not satisfy Part 23, which requires that the avionics
manufacturer provide equipment (in this case) that is appropriate for IFR
operations.
Part 23 prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of type
certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes in the
normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories. It has nothing to do
with uninstalled devices such as handheld GPS.
You can examine Part 23 here: http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2FD2580D
Handhelds are typically not installed. But, once they are connected to an
external antenna and/or ship's power supply they are usually considered to
be installed.
Only by the irrational.
In your view of the world, lots of FSDO inspectors are irrational. I |
won't go into the view that FSDO inspectors have of ATC personnel.
As to all the point/counterpoint about handhelds and Part 23, we agree
that a "non-installed" handheld is not subject to any provision of Part
23. What you fail to understand is that, unless a particular item of
avionics that is to be used for primary IFR navigation is so certified,
it cannot be used for primary IFR navigation. Further, if it is
certified for primary IFR navigation, it then has to be installed in
compliance with Part 23. A handheld doesn't quite make the program.
And, please, don't tell me to prove it. Your resource is any G/A
maintenance inspector at your local, friendly FAA FSDO. |
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Sam Spade
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy of GPS in Garmin 430/530 |
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
| Quote: | "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:ZK94g.174370$bm6.21952@fed1read04...
Keep in mind the FAA does not do a perfect job of keeping the AIM current.
And, of course, it is not regulatory, but it is sometimes directive and a
focal point to provide information to pilots.
If you knew the AIM was not regulatory why did you cite AIM para 1-1-19?
Because it provides guidance to the regulatory requirements. That is |
one of the AIMS principal purposes.
Why do you feel I was incorrect in citing directive guidance? |
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Sam Spade
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy of GPS in Garmin 430/530 |
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
| Quote: | "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:0984g.174363$bm6.171092@fed1read04...
Also, AIM 1-1-19:
d. General Requirements
1. Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires that:
(a) GPS navigation equipment used must be approved in accordance with the
requirements specified in Technical Standard Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or
equivalent, and the installation must be done in accordance with Advisory
Circular AC 20-138, Airworthiness Approval of Global Positioning System
(GPS) Navigation Equipment for Use as a VFR and IFR Supplemental
Navigation System, or Advisory Circular AC 20-130A, Airworthiness Approval
of Navigation or Flight Management Systems Integrating Multiple Navigation
Sensors, or equivalent. Equipment approved in accordance with TSO-C115a
does not meet the requirements of TSO-C129. Visual flight rules (VFR) and
hand-held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument
approaches, or as a principal instrument flight reference. During IFR
operations they may be considered only an aid to situational awareness.
(b) Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped
with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate
to the flight. Active monitoring of alternative navigation equipment is
not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring.
Active monitoring of an alternate means of navigation is required when the
RAIM capability of the GPS equipment is lost.
(c) Procedures must be established for use in the event that the loss of
RAIM capability is predicted to occur. In situations where this is
encountered, the flight must rely on other approved equipment, delay
departure, or cancel the flight.
(d) The GPS operation must be conducted in accordance with the
FAA-approved aircraft flight manual (AFM) or flight manual supplement.
Flight crew members must be thoroughly familiar with the particular GPS
equipment installed in the aircraft, the receiver operation manual, and
the AFM or flight manual supplement. Unlike ILS and VOR, the basic
operation, receiver presentation to the pilot, and some capabilities of
the equipment can vary greatly. Due to these differences, operation of
different brands, or even models of the same brand, of GPS receiver under
IFR should not be attempted without thorough study of the operation of
that particular receiver and installation. Most receivers have a built-in
simulator mode which will allow the pilot to become familiar with
operation prior to attempting operation in the aircraft. Using the
equipment in flight under VFR conditions prior to attempting IFR operation
will allow further familiarization.
(e) Aircraft navigating by IFR approved GPS are considered to be area
navigation (RNAV) aircraft and have special equipment suffixes. File the
appropriate equipment suffix in accordance with TBL 5-1-2, on the ATC
flight plan. If GPS avionics become inoperative, the pilot should advise
ATC and amend the equipment suffix.
(f) Prior to any GPS IFR operation, the pilot must review appropriate
NOTAMs and aeronautical information. (See GPS NOTAMs/Aeronautical
Information.)
(g) Air carrier and commercial operators must meet the appropriate
provisions of their approved operations specifications.
AIM Preface, see subparagraph d.:
Flight Information Publication Policy
The following is in essence, the statement issued by the FAA
Administrator and published in the December 10, 1964, issue of the Federal
Register, concerning the FAA policy as pertaining to the type of information
that will be published as NOTAMs and in the Aeronautical Information Manual.
a. It is a pilot's inherent responsibility to be alert at all times
for and in anticipation of all circumstances, situations, and conditions
affecting the safe operation of the aircraft. For example, a pilot should
expect to find air traffic at any time or place. At or near both civil and
military airports and in the vicinity of known training areas, a pilot
should expect concentrated air traffic and realize concentrations of air
traffic are not limited to these places.
b. It is the general practice of the agency to advertise by NOTAM or
other flight information publications such information it may deem
appropriate; information which the agency may from time to time make
available to pilots is solely for the purpose of assisting them in executing
their regulatory responsibilities. Such information serves the aviation
community as a whole and not pilots individually.
c. The fact that the agency under one particular situation or another
may or may not furnish information does not serve as a precedent of the
agency's responsibility to the aviation community; neither does it give
assurance that other information of the same or similar nature will be
advertised, nor, does it guarantee that any and all information known to the
agency will be advertised.
d. This publication, while not regulatory, provides information which
reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures which may be
requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It is made
available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibilities
required by other publications.
Consistent with the foregoing, it shall be the policy of the Federal
Aviation Administration to furnish information only when, in the opinion of
the agency, a unique situation should be advertised and not to furnish
routine information such as concentrations of air traffic, either civil or
military. The Aeronautical Information Manual will not contain informative
items concerning everyday circumstances that pilots should, either by good
practices or regulation, expect to encounter or avoid.
And, you point being? |
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Sam Spade
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy of GPS in Garmin 430/530 |
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
| Quote: | "Thomas Borchert" <borchert_thomas (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:VA.00006dac.00df106a (AT) hotmail (DOT) com...
Steven,
You know, with all due respect, your "discussion style" is really weird
(annoying, too, if I may say so).
What do you find weird about it? In what way do you find it annoying?
How about giving answers instead of only asking questions?
What questions would you like me to answer?
If you think you know something, tell us instead
of smart-*ssing the group to death.
Haven't I done that? Didn't I tell you that no approval is required for
enroute use of a handheld GPS in the US? Didn't I tell you that the mere
existence of a TSO does not prohibit the use of equipment that hasn't been
demonstrated to meet the standard? Didn't I tell you TSOs are not binding
unless there is an FAR that requires the TSO to be complied with? Didn't I
tell you there are TSOs in existence that cover the "approval" of a great
many things, but you don't have to use "approved" equipment in any operation
unless required to do so by the FARs? Isn't telling you those things
telling you something?
You need to get a better grasp on your employer's policy and |
implementation programs. Headquarters has made it abundantly clear that
GPS cannot be used for primary IFR navigation unless the device
complies with TSO 129, 145, or 146 (or is a certified FMS/LNAV
integrated platform). Then, the avionics manufactors of 129, 145, or
146 boxes must prove compliance before they receive certification. And,
then the device has to be installed in an approved manner to satisfy
Part 23.
The AIM material I cited reflects that policy. |
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Matt Barrow
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Will the FAA be the next victim of the Government AX? |
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"Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:Hxt4g.174441$bm6.30468@fed1read04...
| Quote: | Newps wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:
After we reinstate the draft, the Army will hopefully build up fast
enough to control the civil riots that will become commonplace as the
economy folds.
When the economy folds? The economy is booming.
Not hardly. Only the stock market is booming, but stay tuned.
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The stock market is booming because investment is booming because GNP is
booming... |
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Jose
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Will the FAA be the next victim of the Government AX? |
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| Quote: | The stock market is booming because investment is booming because GNP is
booming...
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Guaranteed Navigational Performance is boosting the economy? Gee, GA
has more clout than I thought. :)
Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
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Sam Spade
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Will the FAA be the next victim of the Government AX? |
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Matt Barrow wrote:
| Quote: | "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:Hxt4g.174441$bm6.30468@fed1read04...
Newps wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:
After we reinstate the draft, the Army will hopefully build up fast
enough to control the civil riots that will become commonplace as the
economy folds.
When the economy folds? The economy is booming.
Not hardly. Only the stock market is booming, but stay tuned.
The stock market is booming because investment is booming because GNP is
booming...
Have you checked the weakness of the dollar recently? What about the |
soaring trade deficit, not to mention the national dept load.
Then, there are a few airlines going broke, overvalued housing with
negative equity mortgages, and rapidly rising energy prices. |
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Sam Spade
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Will the FAA be the next victim of the Government AX? |
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
| Quote: | "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:mce4g.174398$bm6.38326@fed1read04...
After we reinstate the draft, the Army will hopefully build up fast enough
to control the civil riots that will become commonplace as the economy
folds. If there is any margin remaining, then the troops can do natural
disaster control and recovery as well.
It appears you're a complete wacko.
That means we have a common bond! |
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Matt Barrow
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Will the FAA be the next victim of the Government AX? |
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"Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:0CM4g.174561$bm6.16933@fed1read04...
| Quote: | Matt Barrow wrote:
"Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:Hxt4g.174441$bm6.30468@fed1read04...
Newps wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:
After we reinstate the draft, the Army will hopefully build up fast
enough to control the civil riots that will become commonplace as the
economy folds.
When the economy folds? The economy is booming.
Not hardly. Only the stock market is booming, but stay tuned.
The stock market is booming because investment is booming because GNP is
booming...
Have you checked the weakness of the dollar recently?
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Yes.
We've been hearing about that since the 60's.
| Quote: | What about the soaring trade deficit,
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http://capmag.com/article.asp?id=4240
http://capmag.com/article.asp?id=3306
| Quote: | not to mention the national dept load.
|
Yes. Other nations are in similar straits (% wise) with much weaker
economies. Warren Buffet just took a mega-$billion hit from shorting the
dollar.
| Quote: | Then, there are a few airlines going broke, overvalued housing with
negative equity mortgages, and rapidly rising energy prices.
|
And for all that, the US is much more able to cope with changing conditions
than just about any nation on Earth and much more so than any large nation. |
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Steven P. McNicoll
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Will the FAA be the next victim of the Government AX? |
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"Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:HCM4g.174563$bm6.62413@fed1read04...
| Quote: |
It appears you're a complete wacko.
That means we have a common bond!
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Thank you for verifying my observation. |
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Kelly
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:08 am Post subject: Re: ADF and GPS equip % |
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Doug wrote:
| Quote: | New usage for ADF's. Listen to ball games and deduce TFR's.
That's a pretty good reason to keep your ADF receiver (assuming you have |
panel space) Backup for other navaids is not such a bad idea, too.
When is the last time any of us flew an NDB approach, even in practice?
It's been months and months for me. |
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Ron Lee
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy of GPS in Garmin 430/530 |
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Haven't I done that? Didn't I tell you that no approval is required
for
| Quote: | enroute use of a handheld GPS in the US? Didn't I tell you that the mere
existence of a TSO does not prohibit the use of equipment that hasn't been
demonstrated to meet the standard? Didn't I tell you TSOs are not binding
unless there is an FAR that requires the TSO to be complied with? Didn't I
tell you there are TSOs in existence that cover the "approval" of a great
many things, but you don't have to use "approved" equipment in any operation
unless required to do so by the FARs? Isn't telling you those things
telling you something?
Steven, since you are so sure of yourself please go make an IFR flight |
in VFR conditions with an FAA type who can bust you for doing bad
things. Then while on an IFR flight plan resort to only using your
handheld and dare him to cite you.
Ron Lee |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: Re: rec.aviation tee shirts |
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Now, I have heard it all! I realize that there are do-gooders in this
world, and accept this in this respect! However, having an idea to
have T-shirts made up so everyone walks around looking like similiar
"DORKS", has gotta be the most lamest thing i have ever heard of! Do
any of you feel such a strong urge and desire to belong wherever you
go! You don't belong, you stand out like sore thumbs! This is the
stupidest thing i have EVER heard in my life! Take some time, and
think about it! And, then this guy, is going to sell them for cost!
Why? Make some fricken money you asshole! If it is such a great idea,
make some money with it! No, you are just trying to re-coup on your
stupid freakin investment which the maker of the T-shirts even laughed
at!
BTW, I heard Michael Baldwin Bruce is coming with his PRICK painted
RED, WHITE, and BLOWN!
Yep, this is a great newsgroup! Plenty of original ideas and thought!
Morgans wrote:
| Quote: | "B A R R Y" <DwightSchrute (AT) dundermifflin (DOT) com> wrote in message
I agree. For a comparison, check out alt.radio.satellite or
rec.woodworking (which used to be very good).
I agree - the woodworking group is useless.
--
Jim in NC |
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Matt Barrow
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: Re: rec.aviation tee shirts |
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<deckerpecker (AT) merseymail (DOT) com> Demonstrated what an idiotic lowlife he is...
Boy, I'll be glad when school starts back up!
--
"Therefore, as it seems, all men make
unqualified judgments, if not about all things,
still about what is better and worse.
And if this is not knowledge but opinion,
they should be all the more anxious about
the truth, as a sick man should be more
anxious about his health than one who is
healthy; for he who has opinions is, in
comparison with the man who knows, not in
a healthy state as far as the truth is
concerned." -- Aristotle |
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