AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  IFR GNS 430 with expired database Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Jose Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: IFR GNS 430 with expired database I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR. True? Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. Back to top Dave S Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database Jose wrote: Quote: I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR. True? Jose You've been told wrong. You can still fly ILS, LOC and VOR approaches without regard to the status of the GPS database. You can even use the out of date database for situational awareness. You just cant file /G, since you are not capable of legally accepting or executing an IFR GPS approach, assuming that the out of date box is the sole source of IFR GPS certification. Dave Back to top Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database If the database has expired you can still use the 430 for enroute IFR provided you manually verify the fixes you use. So what you were told was rubbish. It neither has to be placarded nor turned off and you can even use it - but not for approaches. Ed On Apr 15, 8:18 pm, Jose <teache...@aol.nospam.com> wrote: Quote: I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR. True? Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database On 4/15/2007 11:18:31 PM, Jose wrote: Quote: I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR. Check the GPS's supplement in the back of the POH. From what I remember (it has been a couple years since I read my 430 supplement) there is a sentence or two about expired databases. -- Peter Back to top Mark T. Dame Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database Jose wrote: Quote: I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR. From what I was told by the DE who did my commercial checkride, you can use an IFR approved GPS with an expired database for enroute navigation, including filing /G, as long as the database contains all of the waypoints you will be using on your flight. You may not use it for approaches with an expired database. Regardless, an expired database wouldn't prevent you from filing /A (or /U as appropriate) and flying the airways. All that is required is that you have the navigation equipment on board that is required to navigate the planned route. So if you have a VOR receiver, you can file and fly the airways regardless of the status of your GPS. Worst case is that it would fall back to the same category as a handheld. -m -- ## Mark T. Dame <mailto:mdame (AT) mfm (DOT) com> ## CP-ASEL, AGI ## <insert tail number here> ## KHAO, KISZ "The world market for computers is approximately five units." -- Thomas J. Watson, President, IBM Corporation, 1950. Back to top Dave Butler Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database Jose wrote: Quote: I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR. pedantic answer: The restrictions are spelled out in the Approved Flight Manual Supplement. Most installations of a particular make and model (like Garmin 430) have identical AFMSs, but since the AFMS is approved on a aircraft-by-aircraft basis, it's possible there can be differences. There is no general answer to your question. You have to read the AFMS for the specific aircraft. Dave Back to top paul kgyy Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not really using the database. Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database On 4/16/2007 9:47:22 AM, Dave Butler wrote: Quote: pedantic answer: I am not sure why you consider the suggestion of reading the supplement a pedantic answer. -- Peter Back to top Peter Clark Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy" <phkmn2000 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not really using the database. What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS. Back to top Ronnie Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database Well, I for one, had to go look up the meaning of pedantic. I'm glad I did. I now have a new, fancy word to use in place of nit-picky :-) "Peter R." <pjricc (AT) gmailX (DOT) com> wrote in message news:kaydnX1N-KfdDb7bnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d (AT) giganews (DOT) com... Quote: On 4/16/2007 9:47:22 AM, Dave Butler wrote: pedantic answer: I am not sure why you consider the suggestion of reading the supplement a pedantic answer. -- Peter Back to top Dave S Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database Peter Clark wrote: Quote: On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy" <phkmn2000 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com wrote: There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not really using the database. What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS. Yes.. you can. If you can fly a plain ILS, LOC or VOR approach, you can use a 430 without a current database. You can still confirm cross radials and such without an IFR GPS. Dave Back to top Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database On Apr 16, 6:01 pm, Dave S <Dasta...@earthlink.net> wrote: Quote: Peter Clark wrote: On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy" <phkmn2...@yahoo.com wrote: What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS. Yes.. you can. Indeed. The usual verbiage is "IFR enroute and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the pilot verifies the currency of the data base or verifies each selected waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data." NDB and DME substitution on non-GPS missed approaches is a terminal operation. Back to top paul kgyy Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database Quote: There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not really using the database. What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS. It depends on the HP - often it's a return to the OM using a backcourse, or a nearby VOR, or intersection of 2 VOR radials. None of these requires the database. Even an NDB would work if you have ADF on board. Back to top Al G Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database "Dave S" <Dastaten (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote in message news:%vDUh.815$Ut6.101 (AT) newsread1 (DOT) news.pas.earthlink.net... Quote: Jose wrote: I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR. True? Jose You've been told wrong. You can still fly ILS, LOC and VOR approaches without regard to the status of the GPS database. You can even use the out of date database for situational awareness. You just cant file /G, since you are not capable of legally accepting or executing an IFR GPS approach, assuming that the out of date box is the sole source of IFR GPS certification. Dave That's how I understand it, and how it is explained by Jeppesen. You can't file /G with an expired database. Al G Back to top Guest Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: IFR GNS 430 with expired database On Apr 17, 8:03 am, paul kgyy <phkmn2...@yahoo.com> wrote: Quote: There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not really using the database. What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS. It depends on the HP - often it's a return to the OM using a backcourse, or a nearby VOR, or intersection of 2 VOR radials. None of these requires the database. Even an NDB would work if you have ADF on board From the Garmin manual: ( I have similar verbiage in my AFM supplement. Yours could conceivably differ.) "You may file your flightplan as /G if your GNS430 is a certified A1 (approach approved) or A2 (enroute and terminal only) installation. If you are flying enroute, you may file /G with an expired database only after you have verified all route waypoints. Non-precision approaches may not be flown with an expired database. See your approved Airplane Flight Manual for more information." So to comment on an earlier point, you can still file /G, even with an expired database, under the restrictions pointed out earlier. Note you can file /G with a C129(A2) installation for which approaches are never approved! It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430. 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