AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  How to measure height of an airplane? Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Flying related activities in the UK View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Joe Harrison Guest Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:03 pm    Post subject: How to measure height of an airplane? Say you are on the ground and want to measure the altitude of a plane that is going over your head, what (simple) equipment can you use? They are supposed to maintain at least 500 feet where I am but I don't believe they actually do. Tired of endless stream of noisy planes (helicopters the worst actually) when I'm pottering around in the garden. I phoned the Civil Aviation Authority last year but although polite they were pretty unhelpful. Basically said well it's up to you to make a case and prove these things are too low. Now it looks like we're into low-flying season again so wondering what I could do. Back to top Tim Ward Guest Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:EAsSh.2727$vo2.683@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net... Quote: Say you are on the ground and want to measure the altitude of a plane that is going over your head, what (simple) equipment can you use? They are supposed to maintain at least 500 feet where I am but I don't believe they actually do. Tired of endless stream of noisy planes (helicopters the worst actually) when I'm pottering around in the garden. Primary school trig. Take two simultaneous bearings from different places with a decent intercept angle and do the sums. (Oh, you have to know exactly how far apart the two places are of course, to give you a baseline, but GPS coordinates should be good enough.) Equipment is sticks and bits of string and/or some means of measuring angles. -- Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb Cambridge City Councillor Back to top Joe Harrison Guest Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "Tim Ward" <tim (AT) brettward (DOT) co.uk> wrote in message news:57v4hjF2e04cgU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net... Quote: "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:EAsSh.2727$vo2.683@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net... Say you are on the ground and want to measure the altitude of a plane that is going over your head, what (simple) equipment can you use? Primary school trig. Take two simultaneous bearings from different places with a decent intercept angle and do the sums. ...sticks and bits of string Hmm it sounds hard, I mean these things do move quite fast. Ta for thought however. I don't know anything about aviation and I imagined altitude measurement might be a routine task with a well-known solution. Any other thoughts welcome on how I convince CAA to do something. Back to top Edward Guest Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? In message <b7tSh.8037$gr2.4407@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net> "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: "Tim Ward" <tim (AT) brettward (DOT) co.uk> wrote in message news:57v4hjF2e04cgU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net... "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:EAsSh.2727$vo2.683@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net... Say you are on the ground and want to measure the altitude of a plane that is going over your head, what (simple) equipment can you use? Primary school trig. Take two simultaneous bearings from different places with a decent intercept angle and do the sums. ...sticks and bits of string Hmm it sounds hard, I mean these things do move quite fast. Ta for thought however. I don't know anything about aviation and I imagined altitude measurement might be a routine task with a well-known solution. Any other thoughts welcome on how I convince CAA to do something. Gunnery experts use rangefinders which seem reasonably portable. It looks like a binocular with the lenses about a metre apart. Try a forces surplus specialist? -- Edward.. What can they know, whose talk is only of bullocks. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Back to top Ric Guest Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? Can I ask you when the airfield that is evidently near you was built? And when did you buy your house? I have every sympathy for you if the former was built after the latter. Back to top John L Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? Joe Harrison wrote: Quote: Say you are on the ground and want to measure the altitude of a plane that is going over your head, what (simple) equipment can you use? They are supposed to maintain at least 500 feet where I am but I don't believe they actually do. Tired of endless stream of noisy planes (helicopters the worst actually) when I'm pottering around in the garden. Unless you are on the final approach path of an airfield then it's VERY unlikely that aircraft are getting closer than 500ft. The 500ft rule does not apply on take-off or landing, for obvious reasons but even so you'd have to be within a mile of the airfield for departing/arriving aircraft to be below 500ft. It is notoriously difficult to judge the height of aircraft and it is commonplace that people on the ground think they are much lower than they actually are. As a light aircraft pilot, I can tell you that there is no way I want to be flying within 500ft of ANYTHING apart from the runway I am about to land on! John. Back to top Joe Harrison Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:34 am    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "John L" <news (AT) here (DOT) there> wrote in message news:461a9286$0$6961$fa0fcedb (AT) news (DOT) zen.co.uk... Quote: Unless you are on the final approach path of an airfield then it's VERY unlikely that aircraft are getting closer than 500ft. It is notoriously difficult to judge the height of aircraft and it is commonplace that people on the ground think they are much lower than they actually are. OK, well I have no idea how far 500 feet actually is but these things look so low I just assumed they must be less. Maybe you are right then I will have to think about it. I work in a ten-storey building so I will ask our admin what the height is and see if I can imagine it from that. In reply to Ric and your point above I don't live near an airport. According to the bloke at the CAA the reason I see all this traffic is that I am exactly on the western edge of the no-fly-zone for Heathrow, which apparently means everyone flies just slightly outside it, which just so happens to be right over my house. It never used to be so busy so I suspect they have created this zone thing in the last few years. I actually quite like airplanes but it is just so annoying when you're in the garden pruning the squirrels and something goes belting overhead, especially when 10-1 it's some fat bastard taking his girlfriend to Ascot or what have you. Incidentally it is always small planes and helicopters, there are plenty of big ones really going to Heathrow but they are quieter and higher up and not a problem. I don't know if it's my imagination but I think I've seen a lot of ancient (WW2) planes over Easter, maybe going to air shows or something. When I talked to the CAA last year the guy asked what their registration numbers were so I wrote down a few and rang him back. I assumed it was like cars and police but in fact all he then did was tell me the postal address of the owners and told me to take it up with them. Back to top John L Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? There's no such thing as a "no fly zone for Heathrow". There IS a large area of Class-A airspace over London, the London CTR, which generally has to be avoided by General Aviation (i.e. non commercial stuff). Its western boundary is an arc from just SW of High Wycombe, south to White Waltham then Bracknell and finally Bagshot. In this general area there is further class-A airspace at 2500ft+ meaning that most aircraft will fly below 2500ft. However, there are two key rules that ALL aircraft must obey except on take-off and landing. One is that no aircraft may be closer than 500ft to any object or person. The other is that in a built up area no aircraft may be lower than 1000ft or, if higher, whatever height is needed to be able to glide clear (e.g. to a field) in the event of engine failure. The upshot of this is that I would expect aircraft to be cruising at between 1500ft and 2400ft in the area you are referring to. Of course there are several airfields in the general area of the western edge of the London CTR. For example, White Waltham near Maidenhead is a major GA airfield, as is Blackbushe near Camberley. It may be that lower aircraft are inbound to or recently departed from one of these long established airfields. I'm afraid that your comment that you "actually quite like airplanes [sic]" is considerably undermined by your utterly inaccurate characterisation of general aviation as "10-1 it's some fat bastard taking his girlfriend to Ascot or what have you". Why not find your way to your local General Aviation airfield and find out about the sort of people, people just like you and me, that fly these light aircraft? John. Joe Harrison wrote: Quote: OK, well I have no idea how far 500 feet actually is but these things look so low I just assumed they must be less. Maybe you are right then I will have to think about it. I work in a ten-storey building so I will ask our admin what the height is and see if I can imagine it from that. In reply to Ric and your point above I don't live near an airport. According to the bloke at the CAA the reason I see all this traffic is that I am exactly on the western edge of the no-fly-zone for Heathrow, which apparently means everyone flies just slightly outside it, which just so happens to be right over my house. It never used to be so busy so I suspect they have created this zone thing in the last few years. I actually quite like airplanes but it is just so annoying when you're in the garden pruning the squirrels and something goes belting overhead, especially when 10-1 it's some fat bastard taking his girlfriend to Ascot or what have you. Incidentally it is always small planes and helicopters, there are plenty of big ones really going to Heathrow but they are quieter and higher up and not a problem. I don't know if it's my imagination but I think I've seen a lot of ancient (WW2) planes over Easter, maybe going to air shows or something. When I talked to the CAA last year the guy asked what their registration numbers were so I wrote down a few and rang him back. I assumed it was like cars and police but in fact all he then did was tell me the postal address of the owners and told me to take it up with them. Back to top Al G Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:EAsSh.2727$vo2.683@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net... Quote: Say you are on the ground and want to measure the altitude of a plane that is going over your head, what (simple) equipment can you use? They are supposed to maintain at least 500 feet where I am but I don't believe they actually do. Tired of endless stream of noisy planes (helicopters the worst actually) when I'm pottering around in the garden. I phoned the Civil Aviation Authority last year but although polite they were pretty unhelpful. Basically said well it's up to you to make a case and prove these things are too low. Now it looks like we're into low-flying season again so wondering what I could do. The model rocket folks use 2 people with small plastic sextants, and some tables. I do believe they are assuming the rocket is directly over the launch point. Al G Back to top Tim Ward Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:41 am    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:%jySh.7819$Wl2.1255@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net... Quote: According to the bloke at the CAA the reason I see all this traffic is that I am exactly on the western edge of the no-fly-zone for Heathrow, which apparently means everyone flies just slightly outside it, which just so happens to be right over my house. If by "no-fly-zone for Heathrow" you mean the London CTR then the airspace above you is uncontrolled up to 2500'. Now, that's 2500' above sea level, so depending on exactly where you live that might be as little as 2150' above ground level. In such an area most light aircraft would want to fly as high as they could, with perhaps a little margin so that a moment's inattention on hitting an unexpected thermal doesn't throw them up into controlled airspace, so they might be aiming at 2200', possibly as low as 1850' above ground level depending on where you live. But ... the airspace round there is going to be a bit crowded, so some pilots will think it safer to fly lower down away from the crowds, maybe down to around 1200' above ground level. (All this assuming that you aren't actually living under the White Waltham circuit, of course, in which case 600' could be routine.) Note also that some pilots are bound by stricter rules than the 500' rule - if I am forced to fly less than 1000' above ground level I have to explain myself to an instructor when I get back, according to the contract under which I rent the aircraft. (It hasn't happened, but if it did I would expect a severe bollocking for taking off in unsuitable weather.) -- Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb Cambridge City Councillor Back to top Joe Harrison Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "John L" <news (AT) here (DOT) there> wrote in message news:461abefc$0$6957$fa0fcedb (AT) news (DOT) zen.co.uk... Quote: The upshot of this is that I would expect aircraft to be cruising at between 1500ft and 2400ft in the area you are referring to. I am indeed in Bracknell and do not believe 1500-2400 feet correctly characterises the altitude of the bits of metal traveling over my particular corner of housing estate. I could accept that maybe I mistakenly identified these planes as below 500 feet when they actually were not, but I can't believe I could get it wrong to 1500+ feet. Quote: Of course there are several airfields in the general area of the western edge of the London CTR. For example, White Waltham near Maidenhead is a major GA airfield, as is Blackbushe near Camberley. It may be that lower aircraft are inbound to or recently departed from one of these long established airfields. Possibly but the nuisance to which I am referring is along the lines of one every few minutes for extended periods. (Although of course I only notice them when it's daytime and then only during fine weather.) I do in fact visit Blackbushe reasonably frequently (for its car auctions) and although I have not paid much attention to the aviation area I must say that in contrast takeoffs and landings appear sporadic and infrequent. Quote: I'm afraid that your comment that you "actually quite like airplanes [sic]" is considerably undermined by your utterly inaccurate characterisation of general aviation as "10-1 it's some fat bastard taking his girlfriend to Ascot or what have you". Why not find your way to your local General Aviation airfield and find out about the sort of people, people just like you and me, that fly these light aircraft? I do like planes in general and I don't identify myself with the well-known groups of people who live near airports and campaign vocally about the associated inconveniences. Whilst I appreciate that some people enjoy flying small planes for pleasure I do feel that especially in the case of helicopters the horrendous expense more likely implies convenience of business or personal transport. Perhaps my Ascot reference was a bit over the top and motivated by too much exposure to the gross behaviour of its racegoers. As an outsider to the business of flying my naive impression of air travel is a system of mindless but strictly-enforced rules and regulations (I even had my duty-free booze confiscated a couple of months ago due to contravening some bizarre piece of airport red tape!) In this context I am cross that the supposed regulators are not very bothered when I report what I think is people flying much lower than they are supposed to. Back to top Peter Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I do like planes in general and I don't identify myself with the well-known groups of people who live near airports and campaign vocally about the associated inconveniences. Whilst I appreciate that some people enjoy flying small planes for pleasure I do feel that especially in the case of helicopters the horrendous expense more likely implies convenience of business or personal transport. Perhaps my Ascot reference was a bit over the top and motivated by too much exposure to the gross behaviour of its racegoers. There are people like that in GA but they probably amount to under 1% of pilots. The best place to find them is propping up the airport bar, anyway, not anywhere airborne. The wealthy Ascot regulars will have a paid commercial crew to fly the aircraft! Back to top Peter Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Say you are on the ground and want to measure the altitude of a plane that is going over your head, what (simple) equipment can you use? They are supposed to maintain at least 500 feet where I am but I don't believe they actually do. Tired of endless stream of noisy planes (helicopters the worst actually) when I'm pottering around in the garden. Apart from trigonometry there is no way you can tell accurately. If however there is say a 500ft hill (that is, a 500ft projection **above the surrounding ground**) and you see an aircraft fly below the top of that hill, and you are standing on the ground, then obviously he must have been lower than 500ft above the ground. Obviously if all ground around you is flat, there is no way you can do this. Many people come to a court accused of low flying, and nearly all get acquitted, because it's easy to show that Joe Public is a very poor judge of height. Most fixed wing pilots will be nowhere near that low. It's hard work flying that low and is pretty pointless. Helicopters do go lower than fixed wing, on average. Back to top Tim Ward Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:9cASh.12006$cj.4581@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net... Quote: I can't believe I could get it wrong to 1500+ feet. I can. It happens all the time. Quote: I am cross that the supposed regulators are not very bothered when I report what I think is people flying much lower than they are supposed to. They are not very bothered because the vast majority of such reports are, experience has shown, simply wrong. -- Tim Ward Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk Back to top Geo Guest Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: How to measure height of an airplane? On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 21:34:51 GMT, "Joe Harrison" <newscontrol (AT) crylo (DOT) com> wrote: <snip> Quote: When I talked to the CAA last year the guy asked what their registration numbers were so I wrote down a few and rang him back. I assumed it was like cars and police but in fact all he then did was tell me the postal address of the owners and told me to take it up with them. Were you able to read the aircraft registrtion letters without binoculars? This might give someone a clue regarding distance since the letters should be 50cm high (unless the wing is too small. 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