 |
Aviation Forums
Aviation discussions newsgroups
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mxsmanic
Guest
|
 Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: How do I fly this approach? |
 |
|
Kindly take a look at the ILS runway 26 approach to Astoria (KAST). I tried
to fly this in my sim and I'm not at all sure that I did it correctly.
In my case, this is what I did: I was on V187 from Seattle at 6000. Once I
was within 25 nm of AST, I descended to 4300. About 12 nm away from AST, I
turned roughly north and flew back out to 19 DME from AST, then turned east to
follow the 19 DME arc until I was within a few degrees of the localizer
course. At that point I started a turn towards the localizer and armed the
autopilot, which captured the localizer and glide slope immediately and took
over. About a mile away from the airport I disengaged the AP and flew the
landing by hand.
Was this correct? I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. Do I have multiple options for this
approach? Was the way I flew it one of them? Or what?
I almost thought that maybe I was supposed to fly to the VOR then outbound to
the NDB then make a procedure turn and come back in. But the DME arc had IAFs
at each end so I finally figured I could just come in towards the VOR then fly
back out to the arc and finally turn towards the airport, which is what I did. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Viperdoc
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Why would you fly 12 miles from the VOR and then turn around to go back out
and intercept the 19 DME arc? V187 does not appear to be depicted on the
approach plate. What was the IAF?
Your best answer to this question would be to get a PPL, and then and IR
with a competent instructor, who could easily answer the questions.
Otherwise, why start another ridiculous discourse when you blatantly are
announcing your naivete to the world? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mxsmanic
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:08 am Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Viperdoc writes:
| Quote: | Why would you fly 12 miles from the VOR and then turn around to go back out
and intercept the 19 DME arc? V187 does not appear to be depicted on the
approach plate. What was the IAF?
|
I was already inside the 19 DME arc while I was still trying to figure out
what to do next. The MSA was 4300, and I saw that the arc was 4000, so I flew
back out to the arc to descend to 4000, since I figured terrain clearance
would be guaranteed along the arc but not elsewhere.
I saw three IAFs, one at the PEN NDB, and two at either end of the DME arc. I
wasn't sure if I was supposed to go all the way to the IAF at the end of the
arc to use it.
V187 isn't marked on approach plates. It's on the en-route charts and
sectionals. AST is on the airway, and I was coming from OLM, also on the
airway.
| Quote: | Your best answer to this question would be to get a PPL, and then and IR
with a competent instructor, who could easily answer the questions.
|
That would be tremendous overkill, extremely time-consuming and expensive. I
was hoping someone here would be able to help. It's a bit like suggesting
that one become a surgeon in order to learn the effects of aspirin. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Beauciphus
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: Troll alert |
|
|
| Warning - troll alert. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Viperdoc
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:07 am Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
| Quote: | That would be tremendous overkill, extremely time-consuming and expensive.
I
was hoping someone here would be able to help. It's a bit like suggesting
that one become a surgeon in order to learn the effects of aspirin.
|
You seem to forget that the purpose of approach plates is to help do
instrument approaches while flying an airplane. Yes, it can be time
consuming and expensive, but it's the price of actually flying.
Surgeons in general don't use a lot of aspirin, but of course that's another
subject about which you know little. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Viperdoc
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Troll alert |
|
|
Yes, here we go again- he will start arguing how people with instrument
ratings that are actually pilots don't know the answers, or he will tell us
why we are wrong.
Anthony is so boringly predictable, yet some do gooder will either defend
him or try to provide an honest answer, and then it's off to the races. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Beede
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
In article <bmsqr41blasknfo9m22n81ep2dkchqh8lm (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>,
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | Was this correct? I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. Do I have multiple options for this
approach? Was the way I flew it one of them? Or what?
|
There are three initial approach fixes--the two on the DME arcs
and the NDB. The procedure turn is for the NDB used as the initial
approach fix. The idea is it's close enough to the airport that
you get established outbound on the localizer.
It sounds like, other than using the autopilot (which doesn't
really give you any experience tracking the localizer) you
flew one of the published approaches.
Depending on local radar coverage, you might get vectored to
the localizer, in which case you don't worry about the initial
approach fix.
I'm not current, and I'm not an instructor, so like the other
poster said, don't take this advice if you're actually going
to FLY the approach....
Mike Beede |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sam Spade
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Mxsmanic wrote:
| Quote: | Kindly take a look at the ILS runway 26 approach to Astoria (KAST). I tried
to fly this in my sim and I'm not at all sure that I did it correctly.
In my case, this is what I did: I was on V187 from Seattle at 6000. Once I
was within 25 nm of AST, I descended to 4300. About 12 nm away from AST, I
turned roughly north and flew back out to 19 DME from AST, then turned east to
follow the 19 DME arc until I was within a few degrees of the localizer
course. At that point I started a turn towards the localizer and armed the
autopilot, which captured the localizer and glide slope immediately and took
over. About a mile away from the airport I disengaged the AP and flew the
landing by hand.
Was this correct? I'm confused by the references to the NDB and the pointers
towards the east and the procedure turn. Do I have multiple options for this
approach? Was the way I flew it one of them? Or what?
I almost thought that maybe I was supposed to fly to the VOR then outbound to
the NDB then make a procedure turn and come back in. But the DME arc had IAFs
at each end so I finally figured I could just come in towards the VOR then fly
back out to the arc and finally turn towards the airport, which is what I did.
|
You did it wrong about every way possible. How long have you been
playing real pilot and still don't know the basic rules?
First, by what authority did you descend 700 feet flow the MEA for V-187
simply because you were within 25 miles of AST? The MEA is 5,000 all
the way to AST VOR. That is basic chart reading.
Then, when you turn around at about 12 miles and headed north you
departed protected airspace. At some locations that could kill you but,
of course, not with your MS toy.
The 19 DME arc is available only to non-radar arrivals on on V-27
(R-328) from the northwest or V-27 (R-166) from the south. For any
other arrival the approach begins at AST via the feeder route to KARPEN,
then the procedure turn.
With this one, Anthony, you demonstrate you haven't grasped even the
fundamentals after how many years of pissing around on this forum. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sam Spade
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Troll alert |
|
|
Viperdoc wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, here we go again- he will start arguing how people with instrument
ratings that are actually pilots don't know the answers, or he will tell us
why we are wrong.
Anthony is so boringly predictable, yet some do gooder will either defend
him or try to provide an honest answer, and then it's off to the races.
It will be difficult for him to rationalize his way out of this one. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sam Spade
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Mxsmanic wrote:
| Quote: | Sam Spade writes:
You did it wrong about every way possible.
Okay. Please describe the right way ... and provide references.
First, by what authority did you descend 700 feet flow the MEA for V-187
simply because you were within 25 miles of AST? The MEA is 5,000 all
the way to AST VOR. That is basic chart reading.
The plate gives the MSA within a 25-nm radius. Once I was within the 25-nm
radius, I could safely descend to the MSA, and I did so, because it
facilitated entering the approach.
|
You must think you are in Canada. MSAs are emergency altitudes only in
the U.S.
| Quote: |
Then, when you turn around at about 12 miles and headed north you
departed protected airspace.
I'm not sure what you mean by protected airspace. Once I was clear of the
Seattle Class B, the rest of the flight was conducted entirely in Class E
airspace, right up to landing.
Airspace protected from obstacles.
The 19 DME arc is available only to non-radar arrivals on on V-27
(R-328) from the northwest or V-27 (R-166) from the south. For any
other arrival the approach begins at AST via the feeder route to KARPEN,
then the procedure turn.
Okay. How do you know this? Explain where and how it is documented on the
plate, or where it is documented elsewhere, so that I can look it up.
|
Chief counsel's November, 1994 legal ruling on use of IAP's in non-radar
conditions. It is available on Summit's Aviation Reference Library:
The letter states in part:
"You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc
initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along
any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a
published IAF along a portion of the published arc." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mxsmanic
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Sam Spade writes:
| Quote: | You must think you are in Canada. MSAs are emergency altitudes only in
the U.S.
|
Even if I grant this (the FARs mention it but do not define it), how would I
then determine the minimum altitude when moving from the airway to the DME
arc? The airway MEA applies only on the airway, which I had left. The
sectional MEF for the quadrant in which I was operating was 1100 feet below
the MSA.
If I'm off-airway, and not within an area for which a MSA is published, how do
I determine my minimum instrument altitude? If the MEA on the airway had been
14,000 feet, how would I get from that altitude to the appropriate altitude to
capture the ILS glide slope in the distance available to me?
| Quote: | Airspace protected from obstacles.
|
By remaining at or above the MSA, I was protected from obstacles. This is true
whether an emergency existed or not.
| Quote: | Chief counsel's November, 1994 legal ruling on use of IAP's in non-radar
conditions. It is available on Summit's Aviation Reference Library:
The letter states in part:
"You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc
initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along
any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a
published IAF along a portion of the published arc."
|
I have the letter in front of me, but I do not see the relevance of it.
Explain how it applies here.
I also don't see any indication of feeder routes on the IAP plate. Can you
point these indications out to me?
I'll ask again: Describe exactly how I should have flown this, and explain
why, step by step. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sam Spade
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Mxsmanic wrote:
| Quote: | Sam Spade writes:
You must think you are in Canada. MSAs are emergency altitudes only in
the U.S.
Even if I grant this (the FARs mention it but do not define it), how would I
then determine the minimum altitude when moving from the airway to the DME
arc? The airway MEA applies only on the airway, which I had left. The
sectional MEF for the quadrant in which I was operating was 1100 feet below
the MSA.
If I'm off-airway, and not within an area for which a MSA is published, how do
I determine my minimum instrument altitude? If the MEA on the airway had been
14,000 feet, how would I get from that altitude to the appropriate altitude to
capture the ILS glide slope in the distance available to me?
Airspace protected from obstacles.
By remaining at or above the MSA, I was protected from obstacles. This is true
whether an emergency existed or not.
Chief counsel's November, 1994 legal ruling on use of IAP's in non-radar
conditions. It is available on Summit's Aviation Reference Library:
The letter states in part:
"You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc
initial approach segment can be substituted for a published IAF along
any portion of the published arc. A DME arc cannot be substituted for a
published IAF along a portion of the published arc."
I have the letter in front of me, but I do not see the relevance of it.
Explain how it applies here.
I also don't see any indication of feeder routes on the IAP plate. Can you
point these indications out to me?
I'll ask again: Describe exactly how I should have flown this, and explain
why, step by step.
|
If you don't see the relevance of the letter and you don't understand
MSAs, then just go play with yourself. You are up to the same bullshit
game. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Viperdoc
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Classic example of Anthony thinking that by reading something (although not
understanding) he somehow gains expertise, which is of course not the case.
His questions and responses clearly demonstrate his fundamental lack of
knowledge of how the system works, as well as how to fly instrument
procedures.
Perhaps he should go back to asking about the location of the ejection seat
handle in a Baron. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mxsmanic
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Sam Spade writes:
| Quote: | You did it wrong about every way possible.
|
Okay. Please describe the right way ... and provide references.
| Quote: | First, by what authority did you descend 700 feet flow the MEA for V-187
simply because you were within 25 miles of AST? The MEA is 5,000 all
the way to AST VOR. That is basic chart reading.
|
The plate gives the MSA within a 25-nm radius. Once I was within the 25-nm
radius, I could safely descend to the MSA, and I did so, because it
facilitated entering the approach.
| Quote: | Then, when you turn around at about 12 miles and headed north you
departed protected airspace.
|
I'm not sure what you mean by protected airspace. Once I was clear of the
Seattle Class B, the rest of the flight was conducted entirely in Class E
airspace, right up to landing.
| Quote: | The 19 DME arc is available only to non-radar arrivals on on V-27
(R-328) from the northwest or V-27 (R-166) from the south. For any
other arrival the approach begins at AST via the feeder route to KARPEN,
then the procedure turn.
|
Okay. How do you know this? Explain where and how it is documented on the
plate, or where it is documented elsewhere, so that I can look it up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sam Spade
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: Re: How do I fly this approach? |
|
|
Viperdoc wrote:
| Quote: | Classic example of Anthony thinking that by reading something (although not
understanding) he somehow gains expertise, which is of course not the case.
His questions and responses clearly demonstrate his fundamental lack of
knowledge of how the system works, as well as how to fly instrument
procedures.
Perhaps he should go back to asking about the location of the ejection seat
handle in a Baron.
It all goes beyond his inability and unwillingness to learn. He |
displays a profound personality defect by the need to ask for technical
help then attacking those who try to help.
I don't know why the nut house permits him access to the Internet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
