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Robert M. Gary
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 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:34 pm Post subject: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors? |
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I'm curious, how does one controller secure a direct clearance through
mulitple other controllers' areas? Sometimes it seems that after a
handoff the receiving controller doesn't know what your clearance is
(but certainly must have that area available for you).
As a typical example, I was flying home from Monterey last night and,
after passing the San Jose arrival area, received an updated
clearance, direct to my destination. Two controllers later, the
controllers asked me if I was direct to the VOR. I said no, I'm direct
home.
I'm curious how the issuing controller is able to ensure a clearance
all the way home direct. And how is it that a receiving controller
doesn't know what a plane's current clearance is? Doesn't this all
make it hard to plan conflict free traffic???
Do controller's "own" their own areas or does the computer? Can the
computer approve a clearance through a controller's area w/o his
acknowledgement? Does a controller need the computer to approve what
he does in his area?
-Robert |
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Bob Gardner
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:02 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.
Bob Gardner
"Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1174930448.998069.127100 (AT) l75g2000hse (DOT) googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I'm curious, how does one controller secure a direct clearance through
mulitple other controllers' areas? Sometimes it seems that after a
handoff the receiving controller doesn't know what your clearance is
(but certainly must have that area available for you).
As a typical example, I was flying home from Monterey last night and,
after passing the San Jose arrival area, received an updated
clearance, direct to my destination. Two controllers later, the
controllers asked me if I was direct to the VOR. I said no, I'm direct
home.
I'm curious how the issuing controller is able to ensure a clearance
all the way home direct. And how is it that a receiving controller
doesn't know what a plane's current clearance is? Doesn't this all
make it hard to plan conflict free traffic???
Do controller's "own" their own areas or does the computer? Can the
computer approve a clearance through a controller's area w/o his
acknowledgement? Does a controller need the computer to approve what
he does in his area?
-Robert
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Robert M. Gary
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" <bob...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.
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But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?
-Robert |
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Mitty
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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Well, he has a flight strip with the full clearance on it (or in some cases an
electronic flight strip -- ZMP is in the process of conversion.)
If you are getting vectors, he may not have the vector though. I don't believe
that the automated handoff has any facility for passing the vector information,
although part of the data tag in a handoff (from Center to a TRACON for example)
can indicate the runway that the flight is being vectored for.
I just spent 3 hours plugged in at several positions in the MSP TRACON and one
of the things I learned is that when you check in with a new controller and have
been getting vectors they like you to include your assigned heading. For
example, "Cherokee November blah blah blah is level at 7 thousand, heading zero
two zero" and not just "Cherokee November blah blah blah is level at 7 thousand"
which is what I had been doing.
Another interesting thing I learned was that the TRACON radar doesn't show the
little vector that indicates direction of flight like the Center radars do.
There's just the target dot and the data block. So you can sin big time on your
heading and, if you don't sin too long, the controller will never know. At MSP
anyway.
Some of the controllers will undoubtedly chime in here.
On 3/26/2007 4:05 PM, Robert M. Gary wrote the following:
| Quote: | On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" <bob...@comcast.net> wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.
But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?
-Robert
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John R. Copeland
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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"Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:1174943154.617774.115830 (AT) p77g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" <bob...@comcast.net> wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.
But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?
-Robert
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I think there's some coordination that we pilots don't see.
Occasionally I go from central Ohio to northern Minnesota via
FWA OSH AUW BJI, which narrowly skirts some special-use airspaces.
One Sunday morning before reaching Ft Wayne, a ZID controller
asked me if I'd like to go direct Bemidji.
I answered, "Yes, but they usually won't let me do that."
Her reply: "It's not busy this morning. I think I can work it out for you."
And she did. And I thanked her for that. |
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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Robert M. Gary wrote:
| Quote: | I'm curious, how does one controller secure a direct clearance through
mulitple other controllers' areas? Sometimes it seems that after a
handoff the receiving controller doesn't know what your clearance is
(but certainly must have that area available for you).
|
If I change your clearance before you takeoff I will make the change in
the computer. It is the centers responsibility to get those updates.
If I clear you direct after takeoff I am locked out of making changes in
the computer and have to coordinate over the landline.
| Quote: |
Do controller's "own" their own areas or does the computer?
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A controller owns his own airspace. No computer owns anything.
Can the
| Quote: | computer approve a clearance through a controller's area w/o his
acknowledgement?
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The computer does not approve/disapprove a clearance other than not
accepting a clearance that doesn't work. For example trying to input
going from one airway to another when those two airways don't cross or
otherwise meet. You can always clear someone direct. |
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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Mitty wrote:
| Quote: | If you are getting vectors, he may not have the vector though.
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The previous controller is required to coordinate that.
I don't
| Quote: | believe that the automated handoff has any facility for passing the
vector information, although part of the data tag in a handoff (from
Center to a TRACON for example) can indicate the runway that the flight
is being vectored for.
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The center has no control over my data tag. The center does not vector
to a runway, that is an approach controls job.
| Quote: |
Another interesting thing I learned was that the TRACON radar doesn't
show the little vector that indicates direction of flight like the
Center radars do.
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That's because center controllers are retarded and wouldn't know which
way the little airplanes are moving if the computer doesn't tell them. |
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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Robert M. Gary wrote:
| Quote: |
But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers?
|
The clearance is on the strip. If it's different the previous
controller is required to coordinate.
And, does he know what
| Quote: | clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?
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That's a requirement of the previous controller. |
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Robert M. Gary
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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On Mar 26, 7:33 pm, Newps <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Robert M. Gary wrote:
I'm curious, how does one controller secure a direct clearance through
mulitple other controllers' areas? Sometimes it seems that after a
handoff the receiving controller doesn't know what your clearance is
(but certainly must have that area available for you).
If I change your clearance before you takeoff I will make the change in
the computer. It is the centers responsibility to get those updates.
If I clear you direct after takeoff I am locked out of making changes in
the computer and have to coordinate over the landline.
Do controller's "own" their own areas or does the computer?
A controller owns his own airspace. No computer owns anything.
|
So, last night my updated direct clearance affected my route through 4
controller's airspace ( I have 4 handoffs since). Did the issuing
controller have to call all 4 of those controllers before giving me
the clearance?
-Robert |
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John R. Copeland
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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"Newps" <nowhere (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message news:LaydnebAgIXdHJXbnZ2dnUVZ_u2mnZ2d (AT) bresnan (DOT) com...
| Quote: |
Mitty wrote:
Another interesting thing I learned was that the TRACON radar doesn't
show the little vector that indicates direction of flight like the
Center radars do.
That's because center controllers are retarded and wouldn't know which
way the little airplanes are moving if the computer doesn't tell them.
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ROTFL! Good zinger, Newps. |
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Bob Gardner
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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I used to handle that by saying to the new controller "BuzzBomb 234X, 7000
feet, on a vector." A previous controller can't issue an instruction that
has any effect in a subsequent sector, to the best of my knowledge, and the
"new" controller can do whatever s/he needs to do without regard for what
the previous controller did or said.
Bob Gardner
"Robert M. Gary" <N7093v (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:1174943154.617774.115830 (AT) p77g2000hsh (DOT) googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" <bob...@comcast.net> wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.
But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?
-Robert
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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Robert M. Gary wrote:
| Quote: |
So, last night my updated direct clearance affected my route through 4
controller's airspace ( I have 4 handoffs since). Did the issuing
controller have to call all 4 of those controllers before giving me
the clearance?
-Robert
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If a controller has to make a landline call because he isn't able to
update the computer he only calls the next sector. He wouldn't have any
idea what guy to call after that and probably isn't able to anyways. |
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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Mitty wrote:
| Quote: |
On 3/26/2007 9:28 PM, Newps wrote the following:
Mitty wrote:
If you are getting vectors, he may not have the vector though.
The previous controller is required to coordinate that.
My experience is limited to sitting with MSP and ZMP controllers but I
am sure I saw cases where the handoff was automated and there was no
talk on the telephone. Possibly these are standardized routes where
everyone knows what the vector is. Or is there a way this info would
have been coded into the data tag & I just didn't notice?
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The center controller has no control over an approach controllers data
tag. Completely different systems. Many times a controller is only
required to send a plane thru a gate. Any heading that gets the plane
thru the opening is good and doesn't have to be coordinated.
| Quote: |
So, you work at a TRACON, right?
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Yessir. |
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Mitty
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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On 3/27/2007 2:06 PM, Newps wrote the following:
| Quote: |
Mitty wrote:
On 3/26/2007 9:28 PM, Newps wrote the following:
Mitty wrote:
If you are getting vectors, he may not have the vector though.
The previous controller is required to coordinate that.
My experience is limited to sitting with MSP and ZMP controllers but I
am sure I saw cases where the handoff was automated and there was no
talk on the telephone. Possibly these are standardized routes where
everyone knows what the vector is. Or is there a way this info would
have been coded into the data tag & I just didn't notice?
The center controller has no control over an approach controllers data
tag. Completely different systems. Many times a controller is only
required to send a plane thru a gate. Any heading that gets the plane
thru the opening is good and doesn't have to be coordinated.
Hmmm ... possibly the handoff with the runway data in the tag was coming from a |
high altitude TRACON sector then. I assumed it was coming from Center because
the aircraft were on the edge of the 'scope, beyond the 30 mile ring. But the
runway tag was definitely there before the north arrivals sector clicked to
accept the handoff. |
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Robert M. Gary
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: Re: How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors |
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On Mar 27, 12:03 pm, Newps <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Robert M. Gary wrote:
So, last night my updated direct clearance affected my route through 4
controller's airspace ( I have 4 handoffs since). Did the issuing
controller have to call all 4 of those controllers before giving me
the clearance?
-Robert
If a controller has to make a landline call because he isn't able to
update the computer he only calls the next sector. He wouldn't have any
idea what guy to call after that and probably isn't able to anyways.
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Sorry if I sound dumb but I really have no idea how this works. So,
when the controller working the San Jose arrivals issued me a direct
clearance, I know he spoke with the next controller (who was working
Stockton area), but the updated clearance also affected the controller
working south of Sacramento, etc. Since my updated clearance affected
this Sacramento controller too (since it affects my route through his
airspace), doesn't he need to be in on the updated clearance as well??
-Robert |
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