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tjd
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Hello from a "new" student |
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Ok, I'm not really all that "new" (as much as I might feel like it at
the moment)... I've been lurking around here for a long while and
posted in some other people's threads but I thought it was time to
start one of my own.
So, first a brief history, starting with the standard, "I had been
thinking about doing this for so many years and now I wish I had
started sooner..." stuff. Finally my wife and mom had had enough of
the talk and got me a gift certificate to the local flight school,
which got me going down this path to financial ruin  My first flight
was January 9, 2005, but due to various issues, my second wasn't until
May, and I didn't really get started in earnest until September.
September was great for flying here in Pittsburgh (KAGC) - I logged a
ton of hours but just had this small problem that I couldn't figure out
how to land the plane. After some dark days wondering if I would ever
"get it", finally the light went on and my landings became much better.
Unfortunately, this coincided with the wind deciding it wanted to blow
from the south, and pretty much every day was above the x-wind limits
for solos. But, on Oct. 23 the day finally came and it was great!
Since then, I've completed my other solos and dual xc's, but the pace
has been really slow due to the weather - since the beginning of
december I think I've flown 5 times, 4 XCs (one at night, which was
cool), and passed my stage check for solo XC.
Sunday was looking good for a change, but then the winds picked up -
VRB04G16, so I wasn't allowed to go. My school also requires a
checkout with an instructor if you haven't flown for 14 days so I
decided to do that and hope the winds calmed down in the meantime.
Much to my dismay, though, I think I've forgotten how to fly  It
would be convenient to blame the conditions but I know that's not the
truth. My patterns were very sloppy. I kept overshooting pattern
altitude; although I can understand that a little - in a 180hp 172,
-9C, Vy gave us 1500fpm (!) with correspondingly silly nose-up
attitude. I could almost make pattern altitude before clearing the
departure end of the runway! Eventually I adjusted to that but the
approach half was still a mess, although I'm still not quite sure why.
At first I was all over the place both position and speed-wise, but
eventually I thought I was doing ok (though not great, especially
airspeed-wise), only to find myself high or low on final (not
consistently one or the other). My instructor was muttering about
weird winds and thermals, so I'm sure that didn't help, but I was at
least satisfied that with one exception (where I was way too high and
went around), I was able to make the proper adjustments on final. I
just wish I had the foresight to get the adjustments done earlier.
But, then came the actual landings - the only word is "ugh".
Conditions near the surface weren't bad at all, mainly a headwind with
a small xwind component, directional control wasn't really the issue.
It was, I seemed to only be able to do one of two things - land flat,
or balloon. One of the baloons turned into a go-around when I floated
a long time and eventually caught a gust that turned me crooked. Not
my best go-around, although it started off really nicely - I was pretty
calm, smooth on the throttle, carb heat off, flaps up to 20. But, we
weren't really climbing and my instructor had to say "push the nose
down", at which point I saw the airspeed was around 50.
That's the part that bugs me the most about the whole day - the other
problems were not "pretty" but probably not "unsafe" - whereas that
situation definitely was - I'm not sure how it would have turned out
without instructor intervention. When practicing power-on stalls, I
always wondered how people managed to get into that situation - now I
think I have a *much* better idea. I've done go-arounds low to the
ground before, but I bet I've never done one when my airspeed started
so low (~40, according to my instructor), they've always been earlier,
when you're closer to flying speed. So, I guess the positive is I've
definitely learned something (double positive since no bent metal was
involved, right?). I've never seen it phrased this way, but I think
it's probably helpful to think of a low go-around like that as being a
lot like a soft field takeoff - no point in trying to climb until the
plane is good and ready.
So, needless to say, I have some more dual work to do before I'm going
to be able to solo. I'm sure my lack of recent flying is a large
factor in my renewed incompetence, but I'm not sure what I can do about
that since it's been almost completely weather-related. Hopefully that
will clear up soon...
well, that was kind of a long "hello", but what can you do - I
shouldn't have saved up months worth of stories for one post :)
todd.
PS: although i've been lurking, I feel like I've learned a lot from
reading this group already. so, thanks to everyone who takes the time
to post here and help out poor schleps like me, it's definitely
appreciated.
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
|
|
On 02/21/06 09:29, tjd wrote:
| Quote: | Ok, I'm not really all that "new" (as much as I might feel like it at
the moment)... I've been lurking around here for a long while and
posted in some other people's threads but I thought it was time to
start one of my own.
|
Great. Keep them coming!
| Quote: |
So, first a brief history, starting with the standard, "I had been
thinking about doing this for so many years and now I wish I had
started sooner..." stuff. Finally my wife and mom had had enough of
the talk and got me a gift certificate to the local flight school,
which got me going down this path to financial ruin My first flight
was January 9, 2005, but due to various issues, my second wasn't until
May, and I didn't really get started in earnest until September.
September was great for flying here in Pittsburgh (KAGC) - I logged a
ton of hours but just had this small problem that I couldn't figure out
how to land the plane. After some dark days wondering if I would ever
"get it", finally the light went on and my landings became much better.
Unfortunately, this coincided with the wind deciding it wanted to blow
from the south, and pretty much every day was above the x-wind limits
for solos. But, on Oct. 23 the day finally came and it was great!
|
Congratulations!
| Quote: |
Since then, I've completed my other solos and dual xc's, but the pace
has been really slow due to the weather - since the beginning of
december I think I've flown 5 times, 4 XCs (one at night, which was
cool), and passed my stage check for solo XC.
|
More congratulations!
| Quote: |
Sunday was looking good for a change, but then the winds picked up -
VRB04G16, so I wasn't allowed to go. My school also requires a
checkout with an instructor if you haven't flown for 14 days so I
decided to do that and hope the winds calmed down in the meantime.
Much to my dismay, though, I think I've forgotten how to fly It
would be convenient to blame the conditions but I know that's not the
truth.
|
Well, I would guess the weather had something to do with it, but looking
within is a healthy attitude ;-)
| Quote: | My patterns were very sloppy. I kept overshooting pattern
altitude; although I can understand that a little - in a 180hp 172,
-9C, Vy gave us 1500fpm (!) with correspondingly silly nose-up
attitude. I could almost make pattern altitude before clearing the
departure end of the runway! Eventually I adjusted to that but the
approach half was still a mess, although I'm still not quite sure why.
At first I was all over the place both position and speed-wise, but
eventually I thought I was doing ok (though not great, especially
airspeed-wise), only to find myself high or low on final (not
consistently one or the other). My instructor was muttering about
weird winds and thermals, so I'm sure that didn't help, but I was at
least satisfied that with one exception (where I was way too high and
went around), I was able to make the proper adjustments on final. I
just wish I had the foresight to get the adjustments done earlier.
|
And with practice, you will - don't worry about that. With each flight,
look for ways you can do things better. For example, on take off, keep
an eye on your climb so you don't blast through the pattern altitude -
and after the first couple of take-offs, it sounds like that is just
what you did. Just keep it up.
| Quote: |
But, then came the actual landings - the only word is "ugh".
Conditions near the surface weren't bad at all, mainly a headwind with
a small xwind component, directional control wasn't really the issue.
It was, I seemed to only be able to do one of two things - land flat,
or balloon.
|
Talk to your instructor about these, as he was there and will have
much better insight into the cause of these problems, but it sounds
like your airspeed was too high and/or you were a bit jumpy during
the flare (which is normal and will get better with practice).
Honestly, I think landings are the first skill which gets rusty with
time.
| Quote: | One of the baloons turned into a go-around when I floated
a long time and eventually caught a gust that turned me crooked. Not
my best go-around, although it started off really nicely - I was pretty
calm, smooth on the throttle, carb heat off, flaps up to 20. But, we
weren't really climbing and my instructor had to say "push the nose
down", at which point I saw the airspeed was around 50.
That's the part that bugs me the most about the whole day - the other
problems were not "pretty" but probably not "unsafe" - whereas that
situation definitely was - I'm not sure how it would have turned out
without instructor intervention. When practicing power-on stalls, I
always wondered how people managed to get into that situation - now I
think I have a *much* better idea.
|
Then it was a good lesson, right? Don't look a gift horse in the
mouth ;-)
Remember what you should do when you decide to go around (or recover
from an approach stall, for that matter) - arrest your sink rate,
achieve climb speed, then begin your climb (note: This is not a complete
list - I'm just trying to make a point here  )
If you were trying to climb before you achieved climb speed, you missed
a step ;-)
| Quote: | I've done go-arounds low to the
ground before, but I bet I've never done one when my airspeed started
so low (~40, according to my instructor), they've always been earlier,
when you're closer to flying speed. So, I guess the positive is I've
definitely learned something (double positive since no bent metal was
involved, right?). I've never seen it phrased this way, but I think
it's probably helpful to think of a low go-around like that as being a
lot like a soft field takeoff - no point in trying to climb until the
plane is good and ready.
|
Worse than "no point" - with ground effect, you could be fooled into
thinking the airplane is ready to climb only to have it stall at 50'
.... unless you make sure you've got adequate climb speed before you
begin the climb ;-)
| Quote: |
So, needless to say, I have some more dual work to do before I'm going
to be able to solo. I'm sure my lack of recent flying is a large
factor in my renewed incompetence,
|
I think "incompetency" is unfair. You're learning, and this is part of
learning. Hopefully, this "learning" will continue until you're done
flying.
| Quote: | but I'm not sure what I can do about
that since it's been almost completely weather-related. Hopefully that
will clear up soon...
|
I think you're doing the right thing: Getting dual instruction. Even
after you get your cert, it's not a bad idea to grab some dual time
now and then.
| Quote: |
well, that was kind of a long "hello", but what can you do - I
shouldn't have saved up months worth of stories for one post :)
todd.
PS: although i've been lurking, I feel like I've learned a lot from
reading this group already. so, thanks to everyone who takes the time
to post here and help out poor schleps like me, it's definitely
appreciated.
|
Any by posting, you're helping others as well - so keep them coming!
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
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tjd
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
|
|
Thanks Mark, I'm very impressed that not only did you make it all the
way through my overly-long post, you commented on most of it too!
Mark Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | Well, I would guess the weather had something to do with it, but looking
within is a healthy attitude
|
Yeah - I hope it's the right attitude, I'd rather be too hard on myself
than make excuses. I'm realizing one of the most difficult things
about this whole process is accurately assessing your own performance.
Especially pre-solo, when I was having trouble landing, I had a
tendency to beat myself up too much, to the point where I destroyed all
my self-confidence. On the other hand, you certainly don't want to get
overconfident, or dismiss mistakes as unimportant. It's a tricky
balance, eh?
| Quote: | Talk to your instructor about these, as he was there and will have
much better insight into the cause of these problems, but it sounds
like your airspeed was too high and/or you were a bit jumpy during
the flare (which is normal and will get better with practice).
|
Yeah, I think overcontrolling was a big problem, magnified by excess
airspeed, which was at least partially intentional. I think my second
approach, on final I had 65 nailed and glanced down at the airspeed to
see it drop to 57-58 instantaneously, at which point I remembered "oh
yeah - gust correction!" But I definitely felt like I was either
making overly abrupt control movements and ballooning, or trying not to
and landing flat. I never could split the difference and get a nice
smooth flare. I guess considering that was one of the hardest things
for me to learn it shouldn't be surprising that it would atrophy.
| Quote: | Honestly, I think landings are the first skill which gets rusty with
time.
|
I would agree, and I think it's magnified because of the precision
involved and the short amount of time you get to practice it. I mean,
during the XCs, I'd get up there and be a little sloppy about
altitude/heading at first, but you can use those few minutes to "figure
it out" again (while pointing out things outside to distract your
instructor from the wildly fluctuating gauges, of course) and then it's
easy. Whereas your flare has to be accurate within feet (if not
inches) and you only get a few seconds per circuit.
| Quote: | If you were trying to climb before you achieved climb speed, you missed
a step
|
Definitely, if I can remember that one thing next time I'm in that
situation it will be a valuable lesson. I also realized this is
probably the first time I've really had to overcome that mental block
of "I know I want to climb, but I've got to push the nose down first".
I mean, I've certainly been slow on final and had to pitch down for
speed, but I think it's a little easier to remember when you're trying
to get to the ground, as compared to wanting to actually climb.
thanks again!
todd
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Mark Hansen
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
|
|
On 02/21/06 12:17, tjd wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks Mark, I'm very impressed that not only did you make it all the
way through my overly-long post, you commented on most of it too!
Mark Hansen wrote:
Well, I would guess the weather had something to do with it, but looking
within is a healthy attitude ;-)
Yeah - I hope it's the right attitude, I'd rather be too hard on myself
than make excuses. I'm realizing one of the most difficult things
about this whole process is accurately assessing your own performance.
|
And that is hard. Let your instructor help you with that. My point was
that if you feel there is something to learn in what you did, then
by all means, learn from it. Whether or not you're performing to *acceptable*
levels, let your instructor be the judge.
Now ... if you think your instructor is not judging properly, that's a whole
other kettle of fish, but I've seen nothing that indicates that it applies here.
| Quote: | Especially pre-solo, when I was having trouble landing, I had a
tendency to beat myself up too much, to the point where I destroyed all
my self-confidence. On the other hand, you certainly don't want to get
overconfident, or dismiss mistakes as unimportant. It's a tricky
balance, eh?
|
Well, I guess it can be. Here is what I do:
1. Don't beat yourself up to the point where you consider quiting.
2. Let your instructor tell you when he thinks you're performing
below minimums - and what you and he should do to correct it.
| Quote: |
Talk to your instructor about these, as he was there and will have
much better insight into the cause of these problems, but it sounds
like your airspeed was too high and/or you were a bit jumpy during
the flare (which is normal and will get better with practice).
Yeah, I think overcontrolling was a big problem, magnified by excess
airspeed, which was at least partially intentional. I think my second
approach, on final I had 65 nailed and glanced down at the airspeed to
see it drop to 57-58 instantaneously, at which point I remembered "oh
yeah - gust correction!" But I definitely felt like I was either
making overly abrupt control movements and ballooning, or trying not to
and landing flat. I never could split the difference and get a nice
smooth flare. I guess considering that was one of the hardest things
for me to learn it shouldn't be surprising that it would atrophy.
|
I certainly had a hard time with that. I did most of my early flight
training in an ultralight. It was a type that is configured the same
as a typical training airplane (in that it has wings, a prop, ailerons,
elevator, rudder, flaps, etc.) - but it is very light, and so it very
susceptible to wind.
I felt I was never going to figure out the right place to begin the
flare and how much control movement was needed, etc.
However, once you get the airspeed nailed, it gets easier. Then practice,
practice, practice, etc.
| Quote: |
Honestly, I think landings are the first skill which gets rusty with
time.
I would agree, and I think it's magnified because of the precision
involved and the short amount of time you get to practice it. I mean,
during the XCs, I'd get up there and be a little sloppy about
altitude/heading at first, but you can use those few minutes to "figure
it out" again (while pointing out things outside to distract your
instructor from the wildly fluctuating gauges, of course) and then it's
easy. Whereas your flare has to be accurate within feet (if not
inches) and you only get a few seconds per circuit.
If you were trying to climb before you achieved climb speed, you missed
a step ;-)
Definitely, if I can remember that one thing next time I'm in that
situation it will be a valuable lesson. I also realized this is
probably the first time I've really had to overcome that mental block
of "I know I want to climb, but I've got to push the nose down first".
|
That's something you need to really drive in to your brain. This is one
of those reasons I think the untrained simply cannot fly without killing
themselves. In the days of yore, when you could only go 30mph it was a
different story, but now you're going a lot faster.
Keep that on your list of things you want to practice whether or not
you're with an instructor. The more you do it, the more it will work
automatically when the time comes that you need to do it right the
first time (or else )
| Quote: | I mean, I've certainly been slow on final and had to pitch down for
speed, but I think it's a little easier to remember when you're trying
to get to the ground, as compared to wanting to actually climb.
|
But as I said, you need to get your thinking brain to override what your
gut wants to do - at least until you've practiced it enough to convince
your gut that it's the right thing to do ;-)
| Quote: |
thanks again!
todd
|
Best of luck, and keep us up to date on your progress.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
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Jim Macklin
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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|
I think that schools that restrict students to some "safe,
low speed wind/x-wind" do students a disservice. I worked
at a school /FBO in Wichita from about my 800 hour point
thru 8,000 hours.
Our limit for doing first solo was 25 kts. We were not too
concerned about gusts as long as the peak wind or gusts was
around 25 kts. But we trained in that condition and even
stronger winds. We also sought out crosswinds that were at
or above the "demonstrated crosswind" per the POH.
The school never had any problems and we knew our students
could safely fly in the normal Kansas winds and could handle
those conditions. Just because the wind is six knots with
gusts to twelve doesn't mean that it won't be much stronger
before the flight reaches the destination.
Learning how to fly in strong winds and to recognize when it
is strong enough to switch runways, airports or technique is
important. If you don't have "high winds" where you live,
come to Kansas or Oklahoma and get some dual. And if you
live in Kansas or Illinois also plan on going to the Rocky
Mountains and getting some duel in the high ground.
Hint, the degree to which you can fly in the wind depends on
whether it is flat terrain or mountainous, whether it is
frontal, an active storm, or just a Kansas wind sweeping
down the plains.
--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.
"tjd" <todd.derr (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | Thanks Mark, I'm very impressed that not only did you make
it all the
way through my overly-long post, you commented on most of
it too!
Mark Hansen wrote:
Well, I would guess the weather had something to do with
it, but looking
within is a healthy attitude ;-)
Yeah - I hope it's the right attitude, I'd rather be too
hard on myself
than make excuses. I'm realizing one of the most
difficult things
about this whole process is accurately assessing your own
performance.
Especially pre-solo, when I was having trouble landing, I
had a
tendency to beat myself up too much, to the point where I
destroyed all
my self-confidence. On the other hand, you certainly
don't want to get
overconfident, or dismiss mistakes as unimportant. It's a
tricky
balance, eh?
Talk to your instructor about these, as he was there and
will have
much better insight into the cause of these problems,
but it sounds
like your airspeed was too high and/or you were a bit
jumpy during
the flare (which is normal and will get better with
practice).
Yeah, I think overcontrolling was a big problem, magnified
by excess
airspeed, which was at least partially intentional. I
think my second
approach, on final I had 65 nailed and glanced down at the
airspeed to
see it drop to 57-58 instantaneously, at which point I
remembered "oh
yeah - gust correction!" But I definitely felt like I was
either
making overly abrupt control movements and ballooning, or
trying not to
and landing flat. I never could split the difference and
get a nice
smooth flare. I guess considering that was one of the
hardest things
for me to learn it shouldn't be surprising that it would
atrophy.
Honestly, I think landings are the first skill which
gets rusty with
time.
I would agree, and I think it's magnified because of the
precision
involved and the short amount of time you get to practice
it. I mean,
during the XCs, I'd get up there and be a little sloppy
about
altitude/heading at first, but you can use those few
minutes to "figure
it out" again (while pointing out things outside to
distract your
instructor from the wildly fluctuating gauges, of course)
and then it's
easy. Whereas your flare has to be accurate within feet
(if not
inches) and you only get a few seconds per circuit.
If you were trying to climb before you achieved climb
speed, you missed
a step ;-)
Definitely, if I can remember that one thing next time I'm
in that
situation it will be a valuable lesson. I also realized
this is
probably the first time I've really had to overcome that
mental block
of "I know I want to climb, but I've got to push the nose
down first".
I mean, I've certainly been slow on final and had to pitch
down for
speed, but I think it's a little easier to remember when
you're trying
to get to the ground, as compared to wanting to actually
climb.
thanks again!
todd
|
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| Back to top |
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Mark Hansen
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
|
|
On 02/21/06 12:59, Jim Macklin wrote:
| Quote: | I think that schools that restrict students to some "safe,
low speed wind/x-wind" do students a disservice. I worked
at a school /FBO in Wichita from about my 800 hour point
thru 8,000 hours.
Our limit for doing first solo was 25 kts. We were not too
concerned about gusts as long as the peak wind or gusts was
around 25 kts. But we trained in that condition and even
stronger winds. We also sought out crosswinds that were at
or above the "demonstrated crosswind" per the POH.
The school never had any problems and we knew our students
could safely fly in the normal Kansas winds and could handle
those conditions. Just because the wind is six knots with
gusts to twelve doesn't mean that it won't be much stronger
before the flight reaches the destination.
Learning how to fly in strong winds and to recognize when it
is strong enough to switch runways, airports or technique is
important. If you don't have "high winds" where you live,
come to Kansas or Oklahoma and get some dual. And if you
live in Kansas or Illinois also plan on going to the Rocky
Mountains and getting some duel in the high ground.
Hint, the degree to which you can fly in the wind depends on
whether it is flat terrain or mountainous, whether it is
frontal, an active storm, or just a Kansas wind sweeping
down the plains.
|
But of course, one of the issues is the type of weather the student
is normally exposed to. If in a particular area, they rarely see
winds gusting to 25knots, then it's a sensible precaution. After all,
we would not want the students first experience with a 25knot wind
to be while he's on a solo practice flight.
It would be great if all students could travel around the country and
get lots of different experience while working toward their PP-ASEL,
but that's not likely to happen.
While going through my PP-ASEL training, I did not get a lot of heavy
crosswind experience, although my instructor did let me try to land
in a very heavy crosswind once - it showed me how difficult it can
really be, and have me a healthy respect for it (if I remember correctly,
it was gusting to 25 knots almost directly across the runway).
My plan will be to tackle various cross wind landings as I continue
my flying career and improve my proficiency over time. I would guess
this is what most newly-minted pilots will do. I think that by the
time a pilot is given his certificate, he must be able to tell what
the wind is doing, and where he should attempt landings as a result.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
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Jim Macklin
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
|
|
That was my point, instruction should seek to introduce the
extreme conditions, so that the student is prepared. We
trained in wind and we flew real IFR. We flew when T-storms
were in the area but kept our distance and always had more
than "one out" so our students could learn.
I did real engine out landings, opened doors on take-off, in
multiengine flying did engine failure at 50 feet after
take-off with a landing on the remaining runway. Flew off
Mid Continent airport, and grass strips.
If the weather is poor, high winds or other less than ideal
weather, it is the instructor who should take the
opportunity to introduce the student to real x-wind
landings, if the sod is wet, real soft field conditions, if
the weather is MVFR, a good dual x-c flight can teach the
student about why to avoid such weather and get an IFR
rating as soon as possible. The goal of the good instructor
is not a 100% rate at 50 hours, but a 100% survival rate at
1,000.
--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.
"Mark Hansen" <meh (AT) NOSPAMwinfirst (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | On 02/21/06 12:59, Jim Macklin wrote:
I think that schools that restrict students to some
"safe,
low speed wind/x-wind" do students a disservice. I
worked
at a school /FBO in Wichita from about my 800 hour point
thru 8,000 hours.
Our limit for doing first solo was 25 kts. We were not
too
concerned about gusts as long as the peak wind or gusts
was
around 25 kts. But we trained in that condition and
even
stronger winds. We also sought out crosswinds that were
at
or above the "demonstrated crosswind" per the POH.
The school never had any problems and we knew our
students
could safely fly in the normal Kansas winds and could
handle
those conditions. Just because the wind is six knots
with
gusts to twelve doesn't mean that it won't be much
stronger
before the flight reaches the destination.
Learning how to fly in strong winds and to recognize
when it
is strong enough to switch runways, airports or
technique is
important. If you don't have "high winds" where you
live,
come to Kansas or Oklahoma and get some dual. And if
you
live in Kansas or Illinois also plan on going to the
Rocky
Mountains and getting some duel in the high ground.
Hint, the degree to which you can fly in the wind
depends on
whether it is flat terrain or mountainous, whether it is
frontal, an active storm, or just a Kansas wind sweeping
down the plains.
But of course, one of the issues is the type of weather
the student
is normally exposed to. If in a particular area, they
rarely see
winds gusting to 25knots, then it's a sensible precaution.
After all,
we would not want the students first experience with a
25knot wind
to be while he's on a solo practice flight.
It would be great if all students could travel around the
country and
get lots of different experience while working toward
their PP-ASEL,
but that's not likely to happen.
While going through my PP-ASEL training, I did not get a
lot of heavy
crosswind experience, although my instructor did let me
try to land
in a very heavy crosswind once - it showed me how
difficult it can
really be, and have me a healthy respect for it (if I
remember correctly,
it was gusting to 25 knots almost directly across the
runway).
My plan will be to tackle various cross wind landings as I
continue
my flying career and improve my proficiency over time. I
would guess
this is what most newly-minted pilots will do. I think
that by the
time a pilot is given his certificate, he must be able to
tell what
the wind is doing, and where he should attempt landings as
a result.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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On 02/21/06 14:10, Jim Macklin wrote:
| Quote: | That was my point, instruction should seek to introduce the
extreme conditions, so that the student is prepared. We
trained in wind and we flew real IFR. We flew when T-storms
were in the area but kept our distance and always had more
than "one out" so our students could learn.
I did real engine out landings, opened doors on take-off, in
multiengine flying did engine failure at 50 feet after
take-off with a landing on the remaining runway. Flew off
Mid Continent airport, and grass strips.
If the weather is poor, high winds or other less than ideal
weather, it is the instructor who should take the
opportunity to introduce the student to real x-wind
landings, if the sod is wet, real soft field conditions, if
the weather is MVFR, a good dual x-c flight can teach the
student about why to avoid such weather and get an IFR
rating as soon as possible. The goal of the good instructor
is not a 100% rate at 50 hours, but a 100% survival rate at
1,000.
|
I too was exposed to some less than ideal conditions during my training,
and I am grateful for it (other than just the crosswind experience).
For one thing, I think there is no substitute for flight in actual IMC,
and wish that every pilot could experience the same thing. I am convinced
it would reduce the number of VMC into IMC accidents.
However, quite a large list of these "experiences" could be developed, and
trying to get them all in during a PP-ASEL course could result in the
student not getting much PP-ASEL training.
For example, I don't have any (well much) mountain flying experience,
icing experience, flight over large bodies of water, etc. I don't think
this makes me unsafe, of course, but before I attempt such flights, I will
make an effort to gain such experience that I can feel competent to make
the flight.
What I have (and I hope all newly-minted pilots have) is an understanding
of what these different environments are and how to avoid them until I'm
ready for them.
.... but I think I'm agreeing with you ;-)
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
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Jim Macklin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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I agree, you can't get real mountain experience in Florida
and when Florida has high winds, the hurricane flags are
flying. But as much as can be done should be and the
warning, "you have much more to learn" should be used. The
FAA has finally begun to require practical tests on all the
equipment in the airplane so the CFI does need to teach
autopilot use, something that was avoided 20 years ago.
Book learning is rote, but if the student thinks about what
the book says and ties it to other experiences, they will
gain from the reading of all sorts of books. When they take
a trip from the coastal plains to the Rocky Mountains, they
can ask questions and advice. They can even hire a local
CFI, he needs the money and you could use the instruction at
Leadville or Aspen. The Air Force fighter pilot needs
instruction in the Cub and the Cub pilot needs instruction
in the Bonanza, but each has to know enough to seek it out.
Yep, we are on the same page. People learn by experience,
reading is an experience. Dying is also an experience but
not very useful. The pilot who learns from other people's
experiences is wise, that's why I read accident reports and
even these newsgroups.
--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.
"Mark Hansen" <meh (AT) NOSPAMwinfirst (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | On 02/21/06 14:10, Jim Macklin wrote:
That was my point, instruction should seek to introduce
the
extreme conditions, so that the student is prepared. We
trained in wind and we flew real IFR. We flew when
T-storms
were in the area but kept our distance and always had
more
than "one out" so our students could learn.
I did real engine out landings, opened doors on
take-off, in
multiengine flying did engine failure at 50 feet after
take-off with a landing on the remaining runway. Flew
off
Mid Continent airport, and grass strips.
If the weather is poor, high winds or other less than
ideal
weather, it is the instructor who should take the
opportunity to introduce the student to real x-wind
landings, if the sod is wet, real soft field conditions,
if
the weather is MVFR, a good dual x-c flight can teach
the
student about why to avoid such weather and get an IFR
rating as soon as possible. The goal of the good
instructor
is not a 100% rate at 50 hours, but a 100% survival rate
at
1,000.
I too was exposed to some less than ideal conditions
during my training,
and I am grateful for it (other than just the crosswind
experience).
For one thing, I think there is no substitute for flight
in actual IMC,
and wish that every pilot could experience the same thing.
I am convinced
it would reduce the number of VMC into IMC accidents.
However, quite a large list of these "experiences" could
be developed, and
trying to get them all in during a PP-ASEL course could
result in the
student not getting much PP-ASEL training.
For example, I don't have any (well much) mountain flying
experience,
icing experience, flight over large bodies of water, etc.
I don't think
this makes me unsafe, of course, but before I attempt such
flights, I will
make an effort to gain such experience that I can feel
competent to make
the flight.
What I have (and I hope all newly-minted pilots have) is
an understanding
of what these different environments are and how to avoid
them until I'm
ready for them.
... but I think I'm agreeing with you ;-)
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
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A Lieberman
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:58:57 -0600, Jim Macklin wrote:
| Quote: | Yep, we are on the same page. People learn by experience,
reading is an experience. Dying is also an experience but
not very useful. The pilot who learns from other people's
experiences is wise, that's why I read accident reports and
even these newsgroups.
|
Me too Jim,
I try to learn from others, and share with others my own mistakes. I have
taken a beating over some of my own decisions, but in the "heat of the
moment" I made what I thought was the safest decision. The wisest, maybe
not, but the safest I thought possible.
I consistently check the NTSB website for accidents in my make and model
plane so I can hopefully never repeat the "probably cause".
I will continue to say this, as I really feel this.... All VFR students
should be exposed to IMC conditions as part of their training. Nothing
like the real deal.
While engine outs, and other emergencies cannot be simulated like the real
deal (ok, in a simulator, you can do it), IMC on the other hand, can be
experienced under the watchful eye of an instructor.
It would be the best 1 to 2 hour lesson a student can get on respecting the
weather.
Allen
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Jim Macklin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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Some accident are specific to an particular airplane model,
for instance the old Bonanza fuel selector.wobble pump
required special procedures to actually select the fuel
tank, the handle had to be pushed down and held to engage
the valve and then turned.
But the common accident may happen more often in a 172
Cessna just because there are so many of them. Some very
good instructors are working, but you can learn a lot from
the bad ones, you just have to know which ones are bad and
decide what you can do to over-come that experience.On my
second solo flight, I took a tour of the local area around
Springfield, IL and saw all the sites at New Salem State
Park, Williamsville and Lincoln and then flew back to
Springfield to land. Saw my instructor and was so enthused
about the flight that I told all about the flight. To which
I heard, "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!"
So I learned that my instructor had not taught or even asked
if I knew about the flight area restrictions for student
pilots. I also jumped to the conclusion that there would be
other things they would be error or ignorance fail to teach
me. That was a very good lesson for me and I tried to pass
it on to my students later, by telling them that I would not
teach them everything, because I wasn't perfect, didn't know
everything and didn't have time and they didn't have the
money or time either. I told them, one way or the other,
they had to study to cover my mistakes and omissions. I
made even my student pilots read and track their training
progress, I had my CFI students teach to my commercial
students while I instructed from the back seat.
As far as I know, all my students are still alive, most are
still flying.
"A Lieberman" <lieberma (AT) myself (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:58:57 -0600, Jim Macklin wrote:
Yep, we are on the same page. People learn by
experience,
reading is an experience. Dying is also an experience
but
not very useful. The pilot who learns from other
people's
experiences is wise, that's why I read accident reports
and
even these newsgroups.
Me too Jim,
I try to learn from others, and share with others my own
mistakes. I have
taken a beating over some of my own decisions, but in the
"heat of the
moment" I made what I thought was the safest decision.
The wisest, maybe
not, but the safest I thought possible.
I consistently check the NTSB website for accidents in my
make and model
plane so I can hopefully never repeat the "probably
cause".
I will continue to say this, as I really feel this....
All VFR students
should be exposed to IMC conditions as part of their
training. Nothing
like the real deal.
While engine outs, and other emergencies cannot be
simulated like the real
deal (ok, in a simulator, you can do it), IMC on the other
hand, can be
experienced under the watchful eye of an instructor.
It would be the best 1 to 2 hour lesson a student can get
on respecting the
weather.
Allen
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cjcampbell
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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tjd wrote:
| Quote: | Ok, I'm not really all that "new" (as much as I might feel like it at
the moment)..
|
Hello. Sounds like you are making good progress, considering the
sporadic nature of your training.
Landings eventually become second nature and you stop worrying about
them. I finally learned the proper technique after a couple years as an
instructor. Of course, my passengers probably don't like it when I yell
"BRACE!" just before touchdown, but it is for their own safety.
(Please don't do that -- jokes are okay among pilots, but non-pilots
don't get them.)
Seriously, don't make more than three bad landings in a row. Have your
instructor demonstrate a landing at least that often.
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Jim Macklin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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When you are licensed and take up your first passengers,
don't say "Fasten your seat belt, we're going down!" It is
better to say "Fasten your seat belt, prepare for a
landing." Even if you are going down.
I've always wanted one of those ahuga horns they have in a
submarine to sound before a dive. And a loudspeaker system
to play a steam locomotive sound while in low altitude
cruise.
Seriously, flying is just like sledding on your Flexible
Flyer down a nice shallow kids hill, the difference is you
have to visualize the hill in your minds eye.
--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.
"cjcampbell" <christophercampbell (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in
message
news:1140582801.416730.288540 (AT) g14g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
tjd wrote:
Ok, I'm not really all that "new" (as much as I might
feel like it at
the moment)..
Hello. Sounds like you are making good progress,
considering the
sporadic nature of your training.
Landings eventually become second nature and you stop
worrying about
them. I finally learned the proper technique after a
couple years as an
instructor. Of course, my passengers probably don't like
it when I yell
"BRACE!" just before touchdown, but it is for their own
safety.
(Please don't do that -- jokes are okay among pilots, but
non-pilots
don't get them.)
Seriously, don't make more than three bad landings in a
row. Have your
instructor demonstrate a landing at least that often.
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tjd
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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Mark Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | I felt I was never going to figure out the right place to begin the
flare and how much control movement was needed, etc.
|
That was exactly how I felt pre-solo, to the point where I did consider
quitting because of my apparent lack of any progress. The pattern was
great - positions and speeds were right on, but when the moment of
truth came I'd botch it.
Next time up, I suggested something I'd read about here - a really low
pass over the runway. It was exactly what the doctor ordered - I felt
like I got 100 landings worth of the right sight picture burned into my
retinas in a single trip around the pattern. My instructor had kept
trying to tell me I was flaring too late, which was true, but the root
cause was that I was misjudging the height. After further review, the
symptoms were similar to what I was doing on Sunday. I think you *can*
land like that (I've seen the term "square flare"), but you're giving
yourself so much less time that your movements have to be so much more
precise. So, maybe it's time for me to make another low pass...
| Quote: | "I know I want to climb, but I've got to push the nose down first".
That's something you need to really drive in to your brain. This is one
of those reasons I think the untrained simply cannot fly without killing
themselves. In the days of yore, when you could only go 30mph it was a
different story, but now you're going a lot faster.
|
I had done a ton of reading before I started flying, and just about
every book on flying emphasizes that. And, I've never even had a
moment of hesitation on final when low and/or slow as far as what to do
to correct it. So, I'd actually say it was not so much that I was
conflicted about what to do - it was that I did not recognize the
situation as it was developing. I never looked at the airspeed until
my instructor pointed it out - I was looking outside thinking "why
aren't we climbing"?
I feel like my brain "locked up" at a critical moment, and that's what
*really* worries me, because I'm sure that sort of thing is the real
cause of a lot of accidents. I'm sure most pilots who've had a
stall/spin accident could (assuming they're lucky enough to have
survived) tell you volumes about stalls and spins - it was really a
lack of awareness that did them in. So, I think that's what you (and
the other posters) are trying to say - the best defence against getting
caught off-guard is experiencing as many things as possible in a "safe"
environment. And remembering not to make the same mistake when
presented with a similar situation again, which argues for repeated
exposure during training.
todd.
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tjd
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Hello from a "new" student |
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Jim Macklin wrote:
| Quote: | That was my point, instruction should seek to introduce the
extreme conditions, so that the student is prepared. We
trained in wind and we flew real IFR. We flew when T-storms
were in the area but kept our distance and always had more
than "one out" so our students could learn.
I did real engine out landings, opened doors on take-off, in
multiengine flying did engine failure at 50 feet after
take-off with a landing on the remaining runway. Flew off
Mid Continent airport, and grass strips.
If the weather is poor, high winds or other less than ideal
weather, it is the instructor who should take the
opportunity to introduce the student to real x-wind
landings, if the sod is wet, real soft field conditions, if
the weather is MVFR, a good dual x-c flight can teach the
student about why to avoid such weather and get an IFR
rating as soon as possible. The goal of the good instructor
is not a 100% rate at 50 hours, but a 100% survival rate at
1,000.
|
Hi Jim,
Well, it sounds like I may have some things to talk to my instructor
about. We don't usually get 25kt winds around here, I've done some
~10kt x-wind landings but still feel like I need more practice. I've
got about 6 seconds of (accidental) actual but I loved the hood work so
I wouldn't mind doing more instrument stuff. (As an aside, flying an
ILS, then taking off the foggles at 200ft to find a runway directly
ahead - that was far too cool for words). But, I've never done any
grass strips or soft fields, or any really sketchy conditions (of which
we have no shortage). Hopefully he'll be up for it, although I wonder
about insurance/liability restrictions on some of those things. If
not, I can always look around for someone who is willing...
todd.
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