AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message A Lieberman Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:58 am    Post subject: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning. Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds. Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says 2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet, I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing? This question is coming up, as when I got my flight briefing, the briefer said, no procedure turn at CAESA from Victor 552 which in my opinion agrees with the approach chart, yet I see the procedure turn barbs outbound 268 and inbound 088 to intercept the localizer. Any assistance in clearing up my question really appreciated. Allen Back to top John Clonts Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:10 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question "A Lieberman" <lieberma (AT) myself (DOT) com> wrote Quote: About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning. Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds. Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says 2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet, I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing? I'm looking at the naco chart at http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF The procedure turn is applicable only if you start the approach at the BAYOU IAF. The "2000 noPT" designation applies only if you start the approach at the CAESA IAF. The barb being inside or outside the 10nm ring is not significant itself (though it shows outside the 10nm ring on the naco chart), but the profile view clearly indicates that you must remain within 15nm on the procedure turn. Quote: This question is coming up, as when I got my flight briefing, the briefer said, no procedure turn at CAESA from Victor 552 which in my opinion agrees with the approach chart, yet I see the procedure turn barbs outbound 268 and inbound 088 to intercept the localizer. Any assistance in clearing up my question really appreciated. I expect that most FSS briefers know very little about approaches :) Have a great flight! Cheers, John Clonts Temple, Texas N7NZ Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question A Lieberman (lieberma (AT) myself (DOT) com) wrote: Quote: Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says 2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet, I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing? I am looking at the chart and seeing that there is another IAF at the LOM (BAYOU). If you were coming from the southwest/southeast, presumably you would use this IAF and hence, fly the localizer outbound and execute the PT. http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00576IL14.PDF If you were coming from the north, you would fly to the CAESA IAF, intercept the localizer at 2000 and fly inbound, not PT needed. -- Peter http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Back to top Stan Prevost Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question "A Lieberman" <lieberma (AT) myself (DOT) com> wrote Quote: About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning. Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds. Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says 2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet, I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing? This question is coming up, as when I got my flight briefing, the briefer said, no procedure turn at CAESA from Victor 552 which in my opinion agrees with the approach chart, yet I see the procedure turn barbs outbound 268 and inbound 088 to intercept the localizer. Any assistance in clearing up my question really appreciated. Allen A0008/05 (FDC 5/0505) - ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND. WIE UNTIL UFN The only reason a briefer would discuss the details of an instrument approach procedure is if there was a NOTAM pertaining to it. Somewhere in your discussion with the briefer, the "procedure" vs the "procedure turn" got mixed up. Back to top A Lieberman Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:10:43 -0600, John Clonts wrote: Quote: I'm looking at the naco chart at http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF The procedure turn is applicable only if you start the approach at the BAYOU IAF. The "2000 noPT" designation applies only if you start the approach at the CAESA IAF. The barb being inside or outside the 10nm ring is not significant itself (though it shows outside the 10nm ring on the naco chart), but the profile view clearly indicates that you must remain within 15nm on the procedure turn. Hey John, Thanks for your quick reply. What you say makes perfect sense!!! (I am using the NACO chart as well) However.... Quote: I expect that most FSS briefers know very little about approaches I should have said that the FSS gave me the following FDC. FDC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS. ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND. IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about? Quote: Have a great flight! Tops are forecasted to be 5000, filed 5000 for starters as I am expecting higher tailwinds at a lower altitude. Should be real good, but short (almost too short!) *smile*. Allen Back to top A Lieberman Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:33:29 -0600, A Lieberman wrote: Quote: FDC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS. ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND. IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about? DUH, Stan Prevost, cleared this question up! I think I was combining procedure and procedure turn together, rather then two different "terms". Thanks to all for clearing this up! Allen Back to top Roy Smith Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question In article <jjvej8idoen5.hwogugsbum7r.dlg (AT) 40tude (DOT) net>, A Lieberman <lieberma (AT) myself (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning. Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds. Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says 2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet, I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing? I'm looking at the NOS plate (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF) The "2000 NoPT" is marking the straight-in segment from CASEA, but the way it's drawn, it's really hard to see that. I don't have an en-route for that area, but I would assume there are multiple airways that go to CASEA. It boils down to this: 1) If you're arriving CASEA on V522 westbound, the whole procedure is NA. Not just the procedure turn, but the whole procedure. 2) If you're arriving at CASEA on any other airway, then the procedure TURN is NA, i.e. you go straight-in. 3) If you're arriving at CASEA from BAYOU (perhaps via MUDDA, MINDO, or GPT VOR). The cartography here is horrible. I would have drawn the PT barb much closer in; this would have made it clearer that the NoPT note pertained to the segment inbound from CASEA. Does anybody have a Jepp plate handy? Does Jepp draw it any better? The other problem is the "Procedure NA" terminology is confusing. Everybody is used to talking about "procedure turn", and the brain just naturally reads "procedure NA" as "procedure turn NA". I've seen that mistake made several times (and made it myself). A better note would be "Approach not authorized for arrivals from V522 westbound". That would be less likely to be mis-read. I'm sure getting that change into TERPS would only require about 10 years of debate and paperwork. Back to top Dave Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question It would be simpler if it said IAP not available. That would be clearer "Roy Smith" <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote Quote: In article <jjvej8idoen5.hwogugsbum7r.dlg (AT) 40tude (DOT) net>, A Lieberman <lieberma (AT) myself (DOT) com> wrote: About to take a trip down to Gulfport MS (GPT) tomorrow morning. Ceilings are forecasted to be 300 broken, so I really doubt that I will be mucking around with full procedure approaches in the clag, but while I was studying the approaches into GPT, I am kinda figuring on expecting vectors for the ILS 14 approach based on forecasted winds. Looking at the approach, the IAF is CAESA. Outside the 10 NM ring, it says 2000 no PT, so, I would take it that no procedure turn is authorized, yet, I see the procedure turn barbs just inside the 10 NM ring. Am I reading this correctly that no procedure turns for the ILS is authorized outside this 10NM ring, and if I was to do a full procedure approach that it must be inside the the 10 NM ring??? Or what am I missing? I'm looking at the NOS plate (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/00576IL14.PDF) The "2000 NoPT" is marking the straight-in segment from CASEA, but the way it's drawn, it's really hard to see that. I don't have an en-route for that area, but I would assume there are multiple airways that go to CASEA. It boils down to this: 1) If you're arriving CASEA on V522 westbound, the whole procedure is NA. Not just the procedure turn, but the whole procedure. 2) If you're arriving at CASEA on any other airway, then the procedure TURN is NA, i.e. you go straight-in. 3) If you're arriving at CASEA from BAYOU (perhaps via MUDDA, MINDO, or GPT VOR). The cartography here is horrible. I would have drawn the PT barb much closer in; this would have made it clearer that the NoPT note pertained to the segment inbound from CASEA. Does anybody have a Jepp plate handy? Does Jepp draw it any better? The other problem is the "Procedure NA" terminology is confusing. Everybody is used to talking about "procedure turn", and the brain just naturally reads "procedure NA" as "procedure turn NA". I've seen that mistake made several times (and made it myself). A better note would be "Approach not authorized for arrivals from V522 westbound". That would be less likely to be mis-read. I'm sure getting that change into TERPS would only require about 10 years of debate and paperwork. Back to top CKonikoff Guest Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question Sorry for not seeing the original posting, but this is all I had. Your display of the NOTAM says to change V522 to V552. Since the enroute chart shows no V522, only V552, is it possible that they simply made a typo on the original and were trying to change the approach chart to say not to make the PT on V552 instead of V522. Just a thought. Charles Back to top Peter Clark Guest Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:12 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:06:22 -0500, Roy Smith <roy (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Does anybody have a Jepp plate handy? Does Jepp draw it any better? They designate it with a note in the plan view near CAESA (it's a Jepp note, inverse-video 1 next to CAESA, the text could appear anywhere but happens to be right under CAESA for this procedure) reading "Procedure not authorized for arrivals at CAESA via V522 westbound". Same effect if one isn't paying close attention to the meaning of the text. Back to top CKonikoff Guest Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question Sorry, but I missed the original posting. I believe that at GPT there is no V522, only V552. Maybe they charted something wrong and the NOTAM was to change the error, V522, to the correct airway, V552. DC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS. ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND. IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about? Back to top Stan Gosnell Guest Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question [email]ckonikoff (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (CKonikoff) wrote in news:20050127201539.13387.00000230 (AT) mb-m27 (DOT) aol.com: Quote: Sorry, but I missed the original posting. I believe that at GPT there is no V522, only V552. Maybe they charted something wrong and the NOTAM was to change the error, V522, to the correct airway, V552. Yes, that's what the NOTAM means. The 522 is a typo, and the NOTAM corrects this typo. Quote: DC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS. ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND. IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about? NO, the FDC only corrects V522 to V552. If you're on V552 westbound, then you cannot fly the approach procedure. In any other case, you do whatever the approach plate depicts. -- Regards, Stan Back to top Tim@Backhome.org Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question CKonikoff wrote: Quote: Sorry, but I missed the original posting. I believe that at GPT there is no V522, only V552. Maybe they charted something wrong and the NOTAM was to change the error, V522, to the correct airway, V552. DC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS. ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND. IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about? They made a mistake on the airway number. What the NOTAM clarifies is that you cannot do the procedure at all arriving on V552 from the east, because it exceeds the 120-degree course change limitation of TERPs Paragraph 220. CAESA is on V552, so it is not possible to do the procedure turn arriving on that route. Arriving on V-552 from the west results in less than a 120-degree course change at CAESA, and because "NoPT" is authorized after CAESA, it's straight-in from that direction on V-552. It's only been in the past three years or so that they have started adding these course change limitation notes to IAPs, although the requirement has always existed in TERPS (subparagraph "b" below): 220. FEEDER ROUTES. When the IAF is part of the enroute structure there may be no need to designate additional routes for aircraft to proceed to the IAF. In some cases, however, it is necessary to designate feeder routes from the enroute structure to the IAF. Only those feeder routes which provide an operational advantage shall be established and published. These should coincide with the local air traffic flow. The length of the feeder route shall not exceed the operational service volume of the facilities which provide navigational guidance unless additional frequency protection is provided. Enroute airway obstacle clearance criteria shall apply to feeder routes. The minimum altitude established on feeder routes shall not be less than the altitude established at the IAF. a. Construction of a feeder route connecting to a course reversal segment. The area considered for obstacle evaluation is oriented along the feeder route at a width appropriate to the type of route (VOR or NDB). The area terminates at the course reversal fix, and is defined by a line perpendicular to the feeder course through the course reversal fix. b. The angle of intersection between the feeder route course and the next straight segment (feeder/initial) course shall not exceed 120°. c. Descent Gradient. The OPTIMUM descent gradient in the feeder route is 250 feet per mile. Where a higher descent gradient is necessary, the MAXIMUM permissible gradient is 500 feet per mile. The OPTIMUM descent gradient for high altitude penetrations is 800 feet per mile. Where a higher descent gradient is necessary, the MAXIMUM permissible is 1,000 feet per mile. Back to top Tim@Backhome.org Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question Jepp chart is posted at alt.binaries.pictures. aviation Back to top Bill J Guest Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question I think a lot of folks may not know what "VICE" really means! CKonikoff wrote: Quote: Sorry, but I missed the original posting. I believe that at GPT there is no V522, only V552. Maybe they charted something wrong and the NOTAM was to change the error, V522, to the correct airway, V552. DC 5/0505 GPT FI/T GULFPORT-BILOXI INTL, GULFPORT, MS. ILS OR LOC RWY 14, AMDT 14... CHANGE PLANVIEW NOTE: PROCEDURE NA FOR ARRIVALS AT CAESA VIA V552 WESTBOUND VICE V522 WESTBOUND. IF and only IF I was wanting to do a full procedure approach coming from any other direction then westbound, would a procedure turn be authorized based on the above FDC? If not, what is this FDC about? 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