AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  GPS Hand Held for Badges Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message f.blair Guest Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 1:17 am    Post subject: GPS Hand Held for Badges What is the least expensive hand held that can be used for certifying badge claims? Need to download traces, create waypoints, etc. Thanks, Fred Back to top Jeff Dorwart Guest Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges Any level of Palm Pilot (faster is better) running SoaringPilot software coupled to any nmea GPS (I have an Ique, a palm with built in GPS that works great!) will give you all the flight planning and tracking utility you need, moving map, speed to fly, fields you can glide to, SUAs etc. Unfortunately it only records IGC logfiles. I believe this is true about all the PDA based log files. Check out http://www.soaringpilot.co m/ . I think for badges you will need either an approved logger, but alot of people forget you can still use a barograph for the official log(pretty cheap). Paul Remede has an excellent presentation on his web site that reviews all the possible pgs/pda/software/logger solutions. Check his page at: http://www.soarmn.com/cumulus/syste ms.htmjeff Back to top Papa3 Guest Posted: Sun May 23, 2004 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works. I sent a long email to one of the "powers that be" a while back (a name well known on this Usegroup) who didn't even have the courtesy to respond. I suggested that for all badge flights and for records below national or world level, a commercial, off the shelf (aka COTS) solution be allowed. This would bring the price of an acceptable GPS log down from nearly $1000 to something on the order of a couple hundred bucks. My argumaent basically goes like this. A COTS unit is certainly no less secure than the existing alternative (ie. a camera and barograph). We have documented evidence of world-caliber pilots trying to fudge barograph or camera results from years past. Yet, we get up in arms that someone may try to programmatically alter their flight log from a COTS unit. Hell, if we simply adhered to the rules of the OO, the file would be taken over by the OO immediately upon landing. If someone wants to go to the trouble of building an application to fudge this data in-flight or during the initial download just to prove they made their silver distance, I say "who really cares." I notice in the preliminary minutes from the 2004 IGC meeting that the proposal to allows COTS units was again rejected. I'll be on a crusade to find out exactly why... "Wojciech Scigala" <usenet (AT) spam (DOT) wojtus.net> wrote Quote: Dnia 5/23/04 1:17 AM, U¿ytkownik f.blair napisa³: What is the least expensive hand held that can be used for certifying badge claims? Only FAI-certified loggers can be used for badge flights, and countries' regulations can't change that. You can still use a barograph and a camera for documenting flight progress. -- Wojtus'.net __|__ FidoNet: 2:484/47 `--------o--------' Back to top Tim Newport-Peace Guest Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges X-no-archive: yes In article <zS5sc.20056$zO3.2748 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net>, Papa3 <pappa3 (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> writes Quote: It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works. ---Rant Snipped-------------- Who are you? I think that it is most unlikely that you will provoke any positive reaction while you hide behind an anonymous address. Anyway, this whole business of COTS units was discussed at the Plenary Meeting of IGC in February this year, as you can read in the minutes of that meeting on the FAI web site. Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was defeated. That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says NO. It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is something you need to take up with your NAC. Very best regards, Tim Newport-Peace [email]tnp (AT) spsys (DOT) demon.co.uk[/email] Back to top Janos Bauer Guest Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges Tim Newport-Peace wrote: Quote: Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was defeated. It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free time on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of glider pilots could benefit from a positive decision. As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least for badges. /Janos Back to top Tim Newport-Peace Guest Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges X-no-archive: yes In article <c8sfll$7s2$1 (AT) newstree (DOT) wise.edt.ericsson.se>, Janos Bauer <jancsika (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> writes Quote: Tim Newport-Peace wrote: Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was defeated. It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free time on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of glider pilots could benefit from a positive decision. Reading the IGC Minutes, http://www.fai.org/gliding/meetings/2004/igc_minutes2004.pdf item 10.3.1, could provide some of the answers but not having been there myself, I could not tell you. Quote: As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least for badges. But I have read a suggestion that Photographic (and all other non-GPS evidence) should be phased out, which would negate that argument. Best regards, Tim Newport-Peace [email]tnp (AT) spsys (DOT) demon.co.uk[/email] Back to top Janos Bauer Guest Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges Tim Newport-Peace wrote: Quote: But I have read a suggestion that Photographic (and all other non-GPS evidence) should be phased out, which would negate that argument. It's right and totally acceptable. But I think it won't be phased out and COTS will not be approved... /Janos Back to top Eric Greenwell Guest Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges Janos Bauer wrote: Quote: Tim Newport-Peace wrote: Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was defeated. It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free time on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of glider pilots could benefit from a positive decision. As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least for badges. You should be able to contact your representative to the IGC and discuss it with him. At the very least, he should be able to direct you to a knowledgeable person that was there. A phone call often gets information that doesn't make it into meeting minutes, or even an email exchange. -- Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA Back to top Janos Bauer Guest Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges I have to admit that I often exchange mails with one of the guys who initiated the mentioned proposal. I helped him to find&contact our national representative, so I know about their discussion. Our representative simple doesn't like this idea, that's all, there was no explanation... Sorry to say, but I often feel that most of the persons who were involved in this decision are not really aware of the technical background. They are often just afraid of cheating but has no any idea how does an IGC logger works and what would be the difference if it's just a black box GPS. They just trust on those professional boxes created for world records... 90% of the OOs doesn't even know what should be checked on a logger (pilot name, glider identifier&type). It was more than 10 years when I saw the last sealed camera or barograph! I even did my approved diamond distance with an unsealed camera&barograph... So what can we lose with this modification? More than a year ago Mark Hawkins (soaringpilot designer) asked for any cheating solutions for his palm based logger, but there was no any suggestion I'm aware of. For me it's hard to imagine to create any system that could do that for the reasonable price (is it really worth to create such a device or cheaper to rent a discus2 and run a 500k on an average day?). Just imagine that you should create an IGC file representing the same data what the barograph logged and in the same time this should meet with your take-off and landing time, round all the turnpoints, have the same wind, present it to the OO at landing. /Janos Eric Greenwell wrote: Quote: Janos Bauer wrote: Tim Newport-Peace wrote: Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was defeated. It would be useful to know why... Maybe those who spent their free time on this proposal, could improve it a bit and one day lot of glider pilots could benefit from a positive decision. As I see a GPS+barogpraph could be equal to photo+barograph, at least for badges. You should be able to contact your representative to the IGC and discuss it with him. At the very least, he should be able to direct you to a knowledgeable person that was there. A phone call often gets information that doesn't make it into meeting minutes, or even an email exchange. Back to top BTIZ Guest Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges I do not recall that there is any "handheld" GPS that can be used for badge flights.. only approved data loggers can... This is not to be confused with the 1-26Assoc approval of small handhelds for their competitions... they are not doing badge flights and it is a small group. BT "f.blair" <fblair5 (AT) ev1 (DOT) net> wrote Quote: What is the least expensive hand held that can be used for certifying badge claims? Need to download traces, create waypoints, etc. Thanks, Fred Back to top Papa3 Guest Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges Sorry 'bout that - thought my legendary reputation as a top contest pilot preceded me ) Name: Erik Mann. Flying experience: Some 1500 hours including racing, record flying, and instructing. I also run a highly successful regional competition here in the good ole US of A scored entirely on the basis of GPS data, including non-approved loggers. All of which just proves that I have a tremendous interest in this sport and nothing more. Beyond that, I'm a senior executive in a major software engineering and consulting firm, with a focus on technical strategy. One of my interests is process improvement , which is why this GPS approval "process" intrigues me so. I think it's great that the process was followed, and it's a shame that what I believe to be a rational proposal failed. So, I'll do what anyone in a free society has a right to do - I'll agitate for change. It would be helpful to find out who the members of the GFAC are, as I was not able to find this easily on the FAI Web page. All I saw was a couple of group mailing lists, but it would be nice to know the names/countries behind the committe. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? As far as discussion is concerned, I did indeed attempt to "discuss" this issue with one of the well known individuals from the GFAC or predecessor thereto. Unfortunately, the only response I got was tantamount to "silly bugger, you obviously wouldn't understand." At least on this side of the pond, them's fightin' words. P3 "Tim Newport-Peace" <tnp@[127.0.0.1]> wrote Quote: X-no-archive: yes In article <zS5sc.20056$zO3.2748 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net>, Papa3 <pappa3 (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> writes It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works. ---Rant Snipped-------------- Who are you? I think that it is most unlikely that you will provoke any positive reaction while you hide behind an anonymous address. Anyway, this whole business of COTS units was discussed at the Plenary Meeting of IGC in February this year, as you can read in the minutes of that meeting on the FAI web site. Of the 31 delegates, only One voted in favour of COTS, so the motion was defeated. That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says NO. It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is something you need to take up with your NAC. Very best regards, Tim Newport-Peace [email]tnp (AT) spsys (DOT) demon.co.uk[/email] Back to top Marc Ramsey Guest Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges Papa3 wrote: Quote: I think it's great that the process was followed, and it's a shame that what I believe to be a rational proposal failed. So, I'll do what anyone in a free society has a right to do - I'll agitate for change. It would be helpful to find out who the members of the GFAC are, as I was not able to find this easily on the FAI Web page. All I saw was a couple of group mailing lists, but it would be nice to know the names/countries behind the committe. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction? Well, I'm the GFAC member from the US, Ian Strachan is the GFAC Chairman from the UK, Tim Newport-Peace is an adviser to GFAC, also from the UK, there are other members who read this group and decloak on occasion... Quote: As far as discussion is concerned, I did indeed attempt to "discuss" this issue with one of the well known individuals from the GFAC or predecessor thereto. Unfortunately, the only response I got was tantamount to "silly bugger, you obviously wouldn't understand." At least on this side of the pond, them's fightin' words. It seems like you've gotten a fairly serious discussion this time around, would you prefer a fight? 8^) Marc Back to top Martin Gregorie Guest Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges On Sun, 23 May 2004 18:14:55 GMT, "Papa3" <pappa3 (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote: Quote: It boggles the mind how the beaurocratic mind works. I sent a long email to one of the "powers that be" a while back (a name well known on this Usegroup) who didn't even have the courtesy to respond. I suggested that for all badge flights and for records below national or world level, a commercial, off the shelf (aka COTS) solution be allowed. This would bring the price of an acceptable GPS log down from nearly $1000 to something on the order of a couple hundred bucks. I don't see where you get "nearly $1000" from. You can get an EW model D logger for $US 535 plus P&P (and probably plus US customs duty/taxes etc): that's a lot less than $1000. The EW has a built in pressure transducer and is IGC certified with most Garmin GPS units. It will record 24 hours worth of pressure altitude + GPS position at a 4 second sample interval or 40 hours of altitude only. You want a GPS as well? Check out eBay: Garmin GPS II+ are going for just under £100 ($US 180) incl. P&P right now on eBay UK and I bet they're a lot less in the US. A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points (11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS 12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per route and anyway its rrp is $1700. IMO there's no contest: the EW logger + GPS II+ combination wins hands down over any of the portable Garmin units on a cost/performance basis. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : Back to top Marc Ramsey Guest Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges "Martin Gregorie" <martin (AT) see (DOT) sig.for.address> wrote... Quote: A quick look at the Garmin site shows that the only really comparable COTS unit is the GPSmap 76S ($430 rrp). It will do 10,000 track points (11 hours at 4 secs/point), so you're looking at a 10 sec sample rate to match the EW's 24 hour capability. The other cheap COTS units (GPS 12XL, GPS II+, GPS 76 store 1024 or 2048 track points, don't have a pressure sensor but are $310 or less. However, their track logs wrap round and overwrite when it fills: to get 24 hours while avoiding that you'd be using a 40 or 20 second rate which isn't really good enough for turn points - don't forget changing the sample rate is non-trivial for these units. GPSmap 296? Forget it - only 700 track points per route and anyway its rrp is $1700. The Garmin Geko 201 (around $120 in the US) and 301 (around $190) both have 10000 track point storage. The 301 has a pressure sensor and includes the glide ratio and glide ratio to waypoint functions. Marc Back to top Robert Danewid Guest Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: GPS Hand Held for Badges Tim Newport-Peace wrote: Quote: That is democracy at work. I am sorry if you don't like the results of the vote, but the COTS issue has had a recent airing and democracy says NO. It could always be raised again at a future Plenary Meeting, but that is something you need to take up with your NAC. True, but in a true democracy you are always allowed to take up any topic for discussion at any time. At least in my country that is my legal right. The "I" in IGC stands for International. Also true, the one who votes for you at IGC meetings is your National delegate. As a delegate to EGU and an alternate delegate to IGC for many years I certainly look for international arguments and opinions as well as views from our members and clubs. And as an IGC delegate I have seen IGC democracy by work. As you have Tim, and I hope you agree when I say that it is not as simple as just voting and that´s it. When you get an almost 300 pages long agenda one month before the meeting one can be sure that not all delegates are fully informed by digital secutity codes etc etc. So you have to rely on "experts reports". What I do not like is that when people (me included) start a new discussion on an old topic because you have got more knowledge or input, these experts always come back and say "you did not vote against it, so it was true democracy - end of story". It is interesting to note that the one who replies on this topic is usually GFAC members or associates, never "your IGC delegate". What counts is not democracy, what counts is influence! That is indeed democracy in practice. I am in favour of COTS, so keep shooting you anynomous Papa3! During 1995-97 i "fought" this "battle" to have the EW FR approved. In the end common sense always win. But it can take some time. 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