AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  GFPT Solo flying Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Planes, gliders and flying in Australia View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Kezza Guest Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:00 am    Post subject: GFPT Solo flying Hi All, I am a low time pilot who has recently obtained my GFPT (ie, logged around 40 hours). Yesterday I was at YSBK and I had a warrior to take out, as anyone who may be in Sydney you may be aware that the past couple of days have been pretty Windy.. In any event, I took a plane our recently for a solo flight within the local training area. When I got to the plane I listened to ATIS and found out the cross wind compontent was 8-10knots.. Given I was taken it out for an hour and it was early and expecting the wind to pick up while I was out I questioned my instructor about the winds and if It was a good idea to go out. In the past hour it had gone from a 5 knot variable to an 8-10 knot wind from 18 (29 was in use), his response with a "you'll be right..." Anyhow, on return I was confronted with a cross wind minimum of 15 max 25.. Given I am a low hours pilot and the Warrior I am flying have a maximum demonstrated cross wind speed of 17knots I just have a few questions. What specifically does the "demonstrated cross wind" speed refer to... Surely it isn't the maximum cross wind it can fly in, so what does it refer to!? Additionally, and I guess, more importantly, Should I have gone out in this weather? this is the second time I have gone out when it has been ~10knots cross wind only to return with a substantially strong cross wind on return.. Both times I have obviously put the plane down safely but both times I thought the conditions were getting a little beyond my experience; especially solo. Thoughts? Am I just a big wuss and making this out to be more than it is? Or should I be going with my gut instinct more and erring on the side of caution?? Comments appreciated. Kezza. Back to top Benjamin Marsh Guest Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying The "demonstrated crosswind" speed is the cross-wind speed which a 'normally skilled pilot' would be able to make a safe landing in. Its like a recommended speed limit for the aircraft's crosswind speed, much like when you go around corners in cars on country roads there are recommended speed limit signs. It would be my advice to always try and stay within these limits (I however, am not a pilot - just an undergrad engineer with a google search engine). If you exceed it too much, my understanding would be that you would have to put so much rudder input into the aircraft that that its wings would strike the runway on landing. Like everything though, these limits are not always the exact limit of the aircraft - though I wouldn't recommend going over it. Regards, Benjamin Marsh [email]bmar6878 (AT) usyd (DOT) edu.au[/email] Studying Aeronautical Engineering (3rd Year) University of Sydney Back to top TB Guest Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying The demonstrated crosswind component is the crosswind that was demonstrated during FAA certification testing. This is done by a test pilot that normally knows the aircraft well. The aircraft may be capable of more but could also be close to its limits. If you felt you or the aircraft could not handle the crosswind you should have requested the cross runway and if that was denied you could have "required" the cross runway. "Benjamin Marsh" <bmar6878 (AT) usyd (DOT) edu.au> wrote Quote: The "demonstrated crosswind" speed is the cross-wind speed which a 'normally skilled pilot' would be able to make a safe landing in. Its like a recommended speed limit for the aircraft's crosswind speed, much like when you go around corners in cars on country roads there are recommended speed limit signs. It would be my advice to always try and stay within these limits (I however, am not a pilot - just an undergrad engineer with a google search engine). If you exceed it too much, my understanding would be that you would have to put so much rudder input into the aircraft that that its wings would strike the runway on landing. Like everything though, these limits are not always the exact limit of the aircraft - though I wouldn't recommend going over it. Regards, Benjamin Marsh [email]bmar6878 (AT) usyd (DOT) edu.au[/email] Studying Aeronautical Engineering (3rd Year) University of Sydney Back to top SR20GOER Guest Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying "Kezza" <kezzah (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Hi All, I questioned my instructor about the winds and if It was a good idea to go out. In the past hour it had gone from a 5 knot variable to an 8-10 knot wind from 18 (29 was in use), his response with a "you'll be right..." Anyhow, on return I was confronted with a cross wind minimum of 15 max 25.. Given I am a low hours pilot and the Warrior I am flying have a maximum demonstrated cross wind speed of 17knots I just have a few questions. What specifically does the "demonstrated cross wind" speed refer to... Surely it isn't the maximum cross wind it can fly in, so what does it refer to!? Additionally, and I guess, more importantly, Should I have gone out in this weather? this is the second time I have gone out when it has been ~10knots cross wind only to return with a substantially strong cross wind on return.. Both times I have obviously put the plane down safely but both times I thought the conditions were getting a little beyond my experience; especially solo. Thoughts? Am I just a big wuss and making this out to be more than it is? Or should I be going with my gut instinct more and erring on the side of caution?? Comments appreciated. Kezza. Kez Demo Xwind is that checked during certification. Important to note that where a handbook says "demonstrated" the onus on the pilot is slightly different to where it states "maximum". If you fly in over "maximum", you are legally in breach. If you fly in over "demo" you are still close to a breach but provided you don't bend the aircraft good on yer. If you do, the insurer will be on your trail as they get the met first thing. Most of us have crossed the line - particularly at an Outback strip where there is no cross strip to call for. I usually plan alternates that are at or close to right angles to the initial planned strip. Your instructor knows all this and obviously knows you are doing it right. Don't be over confident but he or she is signing you out with a lot of $ aircraft in such conditions, and knows you are building up confidence and capability. Having said that, I would still discuss this with he or she to ensure you both have a firm understanding. In a test, you can fail by electing to go when the conditions are wrong. I have seen several people at flight test fail before takeoff. There are two issues arising also. First, the instructor may be testing your PIC decision making skills. Second, if there are cross runways, and you feel it is over your capability or the legal side, request the other runway. Brian Back to top Kezza Guest Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying TB wrote: Quote: If you felt you or the aircraft could not handle the crosswind you should have requested the cross runway and if that was denied you could have "required" the cross runway. Would have been a great option -- had a cross runway existed... Although, I did contemplate diverting to YHOX, Granted, I am only GFPT so I wasn't authorised by my instructor to land there however if conditions had of been any more extreme I would have done so instead of bending a plane - call me strange. Kezza. Back to top veritas Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying SR20GOER wrote: Quote: "Kezza" <kezzah (AT) home (DOT) com> wrote in message news:432d3af6$0$21681$afc38c87 (AT) news (DOT) optusnet.com.au... Hi All, I questioned my instructor about the winds and if It was a good idea to go out. In the past hour it had gone from a 5 knot variable to an 8-10 knot wind from 18 (29 was in use), his response with a "you'll be right..." Anyhow, on return I was confronted with a cross wind minimum of 15 max 25.. Given I am a low hours pilot and the Warrior I am flying have a maximum demonstrated cross wind speed of 17knots I just have a few questions. What specifically does the "demonstrated cross wind" speed refer to... Surely it isn't the maximum cross wind it can fly in, so what does it refer to!? Additionally, and I guess, more importantly, Should I have gone out in this weather? this is the second time I have gone out when it has been ~10knots cross wind only to return with a substantially strong cross wind on return.. Both times I have obviously put the plane down safely but both times I thought the conditions were getting a little beyond my experience; especially solo. Thoughts? Am I just a big wuss and making this out to be more than it is? Or should I be going with my gut instinct more and erring on the side of caution?? Comments appreciated. Kezza. Kez Demo Xwind is that checked during certification. Important to note that where a handbook says "demonstrated" the onus on the pilot is slightly different to where it states "maximum". If you fly in over "maximum", you are legally in breach. If you fly in over "demo" you are still close to a breach but provided you don't bend the aircraft good on yer. If you do, the insurer will be on your trail as they get the met first thing. Most of us have crossed the line - particularly at an Outback strip where there is no cross strip to call for. I usually plan alternates that are at or close to right angles to the initial planned strip. Your instructor knows all this and obviously knows you are doing it right. Don't be over confident but he or she is signing you out with a lot of $ aircraft in such conditions, and knows you are building up confidence and capability. Having said that, I would still discuss this with he or she to ensure you both have a firm understanding. In a test, you can fail by electing to go when the conditions are wrong. I have seen several people at flight test fail before takeoff. There are two issues arising also. First, the instructor may be testing your PIC decision making skills. Second, if there are cross runways, and you feel it is over your capability or the legal side, request the other runway. Fair call .......... Back to top veritas Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying TB wrote: Quote: The demonstrated crosswind component is the crosswind that was demonstrated during FAA certification testing. This is done by a test pilot that normally knows the aircraft well. The aircraft may be capable of more but could also be close to its limits. If you felt you or the aircraft could not handle the crosswind you should have requested the cross runway and if that was denied you could have "required" the cross runway. I agree - and the difference between the terms 'request' and 'require' cannot be understated..... Cheers. Back to top Centurion Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying Kezza wrote: Quote: What specifically does the "demonstrated cross wind" speed refer to... Others have answered this well. I'll only add that a possible reason for not stating a "maximum" cross wind component in lighties is that of litigation and insurance. Consider this: Cessna/Piper/etc state a maximum, pilot bends aircraft at less than the maximum and sues the manufacturer's butt and can basically guarantee their insurer will have to pay. Insurance companies on the other hand *want* limits so they maintain their "get out of paying this claim" clause...enter the "max demonstrated". Quote: Additionally, and I guess, more importantly, Should I have gone out in this weather? Are you questioning your own command skill or are you asking if "we" would go out in those conditions? If you doubt your own command judgement, but came back in one piece with s straight machine, then crack a beer and enjoy the experience. You have overcome another mental hurdle in your progression to being an experienced aviator! You gain experience (and become a better pilot) but pushing yourself beyond your perceived limits in a sensible and controlled way. Baby steps beyond your limits not giant leaps into the "ugh-known". If you're asking if "we" would go out in those conditions, well, I would. But like many here, I have significantly more than 40hrs total time, and somewhat broader cross-wind experience as both PIC and an instructor/check-pilot. There have been a few occasions where I got cocky and max-demo cross wind was not a big problem, I can handle it - or so I thought at the time. The most notable occurred at about 1am in Darwin back in 1998 in a C210 at MTOW. A gust-front from a line of thunderstorms hit the airfield just as I got to the holding point. I thought max-demo cross-wind is 19kts[1], current cross-wind is 25G40......yeh what the hell - go for it!! And nearly paid the price. Yes a C210 *WILL* get off the ground in those conditions but it scared the living sh#t out of me until I was well above the ground - full aileron and almost full rudder couldn't keep me straight then crabbing at almost 45 degrees to the runway centreline with barely enough airspeed to keep the beast aloft (or in control) is NOT a good place to be. What I should have done is taxi back to the terminal, make a coffee in the crew room, wait for the storms to pass and just run late; it was only only freight! The boss would've understood the weather delay - pilot's aren't god and we can't control the weather. There's no shame in admitting defeat to the weather :) Take confidence in your accomplishments, but don't get over-confident. Cheers, James [1] I'm pretty sure that's the max-demo cross wind component in a C210M, but usual disclaimers apply - read the FM yourself -- What good is a ticket to the good life, if you can't find the entrance? Back to top Mark Newton Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying In article <h9u103-h7g.ln1 (AT) gandalf (DOT) grayonline.id.au>, Centurion <spam.this (AT) nowhere (DOT) tld> wrote: Quote: nearly paid the price. Yes a C210 *WILL* get off the ground in those conditions but it scared the living sh#t out of me until I was well above the ground - full aileron and almost full rudder couldn't keep me straight then crabbing at almost 45 degrees to the runway centreline with barely enough airspeed to keep the beast aloft (or in control) is NOT a good place to be. Curious: How is the crosswind relevent when you're off the ground? Max crosswind limitations arise from the controllability of the aircraft on the ground -- e.g., whether the plane's tendency to weathercock in a crosswind exceeds the directional authority provided by its undercarriage at airspeeds up to separation; and whether the aircraft would need to bank steeply enough during the landing to make bits of the plane come into contact with the ground (cf: engine scrapes on B747's) Once you're off the ground that's all completely irrelevent. Why would a crosswind leave you with "barely enough airspeed to keep the beast aloft (or in control)"? If anything, you'd have been climbing into a wind gradient and had MORE airspeed and control effectiveness as you ascended...! Did you maybe just pick the wrong runway during the changing conditions, and end up with a tailwind takeoff (and a corresponding tailwind wind gradient during the climb-out)? - mark Back to top RT Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying "Mark Newton" <newton (AT) NOSPAMatdot (DOT) dotat.org> wrote Quote: In article <h9u103-h7g.ln1 (AT) gandalf (DOT) grayonline.id.au>, Centurion <spam.this (AT) nowhere (DOT) tld> wrote: nearly paid the price. Yes a C210 *WILL* get off the ground in those conditions but it scared the living sh#t out of me until I was well above the ground - full aileron and almost full rudder couldn't keep me straight then crabbing at almost 45 degrees to the runway centreline with barely enough airspeed to keep the beast aloft (or in control) is NOT a good place to be. Curious: How is the crosswind relevent when you're off the ground? Max crosswind limitations arise from the controllability of the aircraft on the ground -- e.g., whether the plane's tendency to weathercock in a crosswind exceeds the directional authority provided by its undercarriage at airspeeds up to separation; and whether the aircraft would need to bank steeply enough during the landing to make bits of the plane come into contact with the ground (cf: engine scrapes on B747's) Once you're off the ground that's all completely irrelevent. Why would a crosswind leave you with "barely enough airspeed to keep the beast aloft (or in control)"? If anything, you'd have been climbing into a wind gradient and had MORE airspeed and control effectiveness as you ascended...! Did you maybe just pick the wrong runway during the changing conditions, and end up with a tailwind takeoff (and a corresponding tailwind wind gradient during the climb-out)? Think about the vectors. Ok, the problem didn't last for hours. Didn't have to! Lift off at 65kt(?), kick into wind and find the IAS down to zot. Ok, you're *pointed* into wind but *travelling* at 45 degrees to it! Etc! Scary bloody stuff :-( Heh! Nice to know a bloody 210 nearly killed someone else beside me :-) Compliments, Centurian, on hands/feet/arse sensitive and delicate enough to get you out of that shit. Back to top Centurion Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying Mark Newton wrote: Quote: In article <h9u103-h7g.ln1 (AT) gandalf (DOT) grayonline.id.au>, Centurion <spam.this (AT) nowhere (DOT) tld> wrote: nearly paid the price. Yes a C210 *WILL* get off the ground in those conditions but it scared the living sh#t out of me until I was well above the ground - full aileron and almost full rudder couldn't keep me straight then crabbing at almost 45 degrees to the runway centreline with barely enough airspeed to keep the beast aloft (or in control) is NOT a good place to be. Curious: How is the crosswind relevent when you're off the ground? It's not particularly - but when you're fighting to keep the thing in the air, the prospect of the wheels hitting the runway in a 45-degree crab doesn't excite me for any of the right reasons. More details follow - read on :) Quote: Max crosswind limitations arise from the controllability of the aircraft on the ground -- e.g., whether the plane's tendency to weathercock in a crosswind exceeds the directional authority provided by its undercarriage at airspeeds up to separation; and whether the aircraft would need to bank steeply enough during the landing to make bits of the plane come into contact with the ground (cf: engine scrapes on B747's) 100% true. I'm not challenging that (see below, I actually reinforce the points you make above). My problem was that in the gusty conditions, the aircraft became airborne too early - before normal "separation" for the weight I was operating at. I was pointing out in my original post (possible) reasons for having the wording the way it is in flight manuals. "Max demonstrated" implies that it may or may not be the physical limit of the airframe thus absolving manufacturers of possible litigation, but does give insurers a number to beat a claim with. I was being a little facetious and a little cynical :) Quote: Once you're off the ground that's all completely irrelevent. Why would a crosswind leave you with "barely enough airspeed to keep the beast aloft (or in control)"? If anything, you'd have been climbing into a wind gradient and had MORE airspeed and control effectiveness as you ascended...! The cross wind had nothing to do with my airspeed. But the gusty conditions sure as hell did (think numerous overshoot then undershoot wind shear sequences). You've never flown a C210 in gusty conditions at max weight near the ground have you? Here's how it worked on that particular night: 1. gusty cross wind (almost 10kts variance down the runway). 2. take-off roll commenced with full left aileron and a boot full of right rudder (right rudder to counter torque + weather-vane-effect). 3. as I ran out of rudder authority the machine started to become quite difficult to keep straight - this occurred around 40-45kts. 4. During a gust the machine cocked into wind slightly and lifted off the ground slower than I prefer for a fully-loaded C210 (it was <60kts!). However, once the wheels were off the ground the machine swung to about 45-degrees crab angle. 5. I was now committed to a takeoff that had occurred almost 15kts early and no longer had the option to put it back on the deck. 6. Once the airspeed got over the "hump"[1] (still in ground effect) I was able to climb away, but for about 300-500m it was very close to the edge with stall warning screaming every time a gust subsided with barley a dozen feet between me and the ground. Quote: Did you maybe just pick the wrong runway during the changing conditions, and end up with a tailwind takeoff (and a corresponding tailwind wind gradient during the climb-out)? Nope - runway 29, E2 departure[2] - which gives you about half the 3354m TORA. Wind was about 230-240/25G40. So cross wind components for the runway would have been (based on wind from 235): RWY29: 20-33kts Left cross wind, 14-23kts head wind RWY18: 20-33kts Right cross wind, 14-23kts head wind Hmm - this seems to match the conversation I had with the tower at the time, who said (quote) "6 of 1, half dozen of the other, take your pick" when I asked about RWY18 instead of 29. I stuck with 29 for a few reasons: 1. wider (MUCH wider) than 18. 2. even departing from E2 on RWY29, you have about 100m more than full-length on RWY18. Both runways are initially uphill until you pass the 18/36 and 11/29 intersection. 3. RWY29 spits you out over the ocean (less to hit if it turns to shit), after clearing that bloody block of flats and Baggot Rd! 4. it was a familiar departure route so I wouldn't need to think too much about navigating. And for the record - I'm not trying to defend my actions; it was a bloody stupid stunt that I learnt a lot from. I hope other pilots might see that it's easy to convince yourself that you have a handle on a situation when really you're attempting something that is beyond your experience and the capability of your machine. I was operating in a familiar aircraft, on a familiar route with over 1000 hours experience (at the time). I should have known better. Hope that clears it up :) James [1] By airspeed "hump" I mean "on the right side of the drag curve". C210's have a high speed laminar wing and don't perform very well when dragged into the air early. This is common to most "high performance" air foils. [2] http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/ersa/FAC_YPDN_1-Sep-2005.pdf -- "I DO want your money, because god wants your money!" -- The Reverend Jimmy, from _Repo_Man_ Back to top AA Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying "veritas" <veritas (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: TB wrote: The demonstrated crosswind component is the crosswind that was demonstrated during FAA certification testing. This is done by a test pilot that normally knows the aircraft well. The aircraft may be capable of more but could also be close to its limits. If you felt you or the aircraft could not handle the crosswind you should have requested the cross runway and if that was denied you could have "required" the cross runway. I agree - and the difference between the terms 'request' and 'require' cannot be understated..... As a controller I couldn't agree more. If you require something to ensure the safe operation of your aircraft, use the words "I require...". If that doesn't work, declare a PAN and put an incident report in. AA Back to top Centurion Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying RT wrote: Quote: "Mark Newton" wrote Did you maybe just pick the wrong runway during the changing conditions, and end up with a tailwind takeoff (and a corresponding tailwind wind gradient during the climb-out)? Think about the vectors. Ok, the problem didn't last for hours. Didn't have to! Lift off at 65kt(?), kick into wind and find the IAS down to zot. Ok, you're *pointed* into wind but *travelling* at 45 degrees to it! Yup - see my other post for the numbers. Quote: Etc! Scary bloody stuff :-( Heh! Nice to know a bloody 210 nearly killed someone else beside me Oh - that's just one of the stories I can tell...the others require alcohol. MUCH alcohol to numb the pain! Quote: Compliments, Centurian, on hands/feet/arse sensitive and delicate enough to get you out of that shit. You give me too much credit. Yah I survived and some of that was skill, but a whole lot was pure dumb luck! I remember it like it was yesterday. The words came hissing through my teeth "woo shit, wooooo shit, wooo shit" I smile now, but it really was a close call. Cheers, James -- Mais constrangido que padre em puteiro. Back to top RT Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying "Centurion" <spam_this (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote Quote: [1] By airspeed "hump" I mean "on the right side of the drag curve". C210's have a high speed laminar wing and don't perform very well when dragged into the air early. This is common to most "high performance" air foils. And THAT is what came within a poofteenth of rolling me and two pax up in a ball of flame in a 210 :-( That bloody Joe Cool laminar flow wing on the strutless one (VH-EUX) <sigh> compared with the earlier conventional airfoil/strutted ones............. Back to top Coop Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: GFPT Solo flying Kezza wrote: Quote: TB wrote: If you felt you or the aircraft could not handle the crosswind you should have requested the cross runway and if that was denied you could have "required" the cross runway. Would have been a great option -- had a cross runway existed... Although, I did contemplate diverting to YHOX, Granted, I am only GFPT so I wasn't authorised by my instructor to land there however if conditions had of been any more extreme I would have done so instead of bending a plane - call me strange. Kezza. Hell No!! No way you'd catch me calling you strange. I'd buy you a beer instead. Half of good airmanship is being able to put out of your mind what others might think about your plans, and select a course of action because its the logical and safe thing to do. In the future, if you can ignore the pleas of your friends (who have driven for an hour or so to get to the airport) and say "Sorry, it's too rough/cloudy/whatever to go flying with me today" then you have the strength of character to make a safe pilot. (Likewise if you can stand up to a bollocking from your instructor because he has to drive to Hoxton to collect the aircraft.) Knowing your limitations and staying within them as you gain experience will keep you safe. Taking your instructor with you when its a marginal day and finding out where the limits are will extend your skills. As a gliding instructor I took a student on a short cross-country one day. A few miles from the field on the way back we had barely enough altitude to get home, and no more lift. I elected to land in a paddock. Naturally, I copped a right royal razzing from all and sundry- except the CFI, who had seen the whole thing. He quietly said "I'm glad you chose to teach your student how to manage a safe paddock landing than how to manage a dangerous final glide." I've never forgotten that (Thank you, Maurie Bradney). Mind you, he joined in the teasing later- but with a twinkle in his eye... 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