AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Getting the MOCA Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Dan Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Getting the MOCA What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the services, but the MEAs are a pain.... --Dan Back to top Sam Spade Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Dan wrote: Quote: What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the services, but the MEAs are a pain.... --Dan The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station, nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a Victor airway within the rules. Having said that, if the controller has you on radar and is willing to assign you his center minimum instrument altitude for the area, that is fine. The MIA may be lower than the MOCA or it may be higher. And, the controller has to have the time to do all this. Someday, there will be "G" altitudes charted for some of those western area airways, but the FAA is moving very slowly. They just don't have the manpower. The establishment of "G" (for GPS) altitudes is more than a paper drill; they have to flight inspect for terrain clearance and communications capability. Back to top Jose Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Quote: The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station, nor can you legally request it. I have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything. Where is it written that a pilot violates the law by requesting a MOCA? Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. Back to top Mitty Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA I just file for the altitude I want. If I get it, fine. Usually I get it. If not I will request it from Departure or Center during climb.. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes we haggle out a compromise. Almost always it is below the MEA. I do this typically when headwinds are strong and I always explain the reason to the controller. Often a Center controller will even allow me to be non-radar (below his view) and ask me to report position once in a while. On 6/23/2006 1:52 AM, Dan wrote the following: Quote: What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the services, but the MEAs are a pain.... --Dan Back to top Sam Spade Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Jose wrote: Quote: The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station, nor can you legally request it. I have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything. Where is it written that a pilot violates the law by requesting a MOCA? Jose You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything? Okie Dokie. Back to top Sam Spade Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Mitty wrote: Quote: I just file for the altitude I want. If I get it, fine. Usually I get it. If not I will request it from Departure or Center during climb.. Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes we haggle out a compromise. Almost always it is below the MEA. I do this typically when headwinds are strong and I always explain the reason to the controller. Often a Center controller will even allow me to be non-radar (below his view) and ask me to report position once in a while. On 6/23/2006 1:52 AM, Dan wrote the following: What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the services, but the MEAs are a pain.... --Dan But, it is not the MOCA the center assigns you. It's the MIA. Here is what the ATC handbook says about controllers assigning MOCAs beyond 22 miles of the VOR: 4-5-6. MINIMUM EN ROUTE ALTITUDES Except as provided in subparas a and b below, assign altitudes at or above the MEA for the route segment being flown. When a lower MEA for subsequent segments of the route is applicable, issue the lower MEA only after the aircraft is over or past the Fix/NAVAID beyond which the lower MEA applies unless a crossing restriction at or above the higher MEA is issued. a. An aircraft may be cleared below the MEA but not below the MOCA for the route segment being flown if the altitude assigned is at least 300 feet above the floor of controlled airspace and one of the following conditions are met: NOTE- Controllers must be aware that in the event of radio communications failure, a pilot will climb to the MEA for the route segment being flown. 1. Nonradar procedures are used only within 22 miles of a VOR, VORTAC, or TACAN. 2. Radar procedures are used only when an operational advantage is realized and the following actions are taken: (a) Radar navigational guidance is provided until the aircraft is within 22 miles of the NAVAID, and (b) Lost communications instructions are issued. Back to top Jose Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Quote: You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything? Ok, you take me too literally. Rather than play games, I've never heard that it's illegal to request an altitude from ATC. It may be illegal for ATC to grant that altitude, but illegal to request it? That would be news to me. But I'm willing to read news. Tell me more. Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. Back to top Sam Spade Guest Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Jose wrote: Quote: You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything? Ok, you take me too literally. Rather than play games, I've never heard that it's illegal to request an altitude from ATC. It may be illegal for ATC to grant that altitude, but illegal to request it? That would be news to me. But I'm willing to read news. Tell me more. Jose The MOCA was never intended to be an operational altitude. Where is a large difference between MEA and MOCA the TERPs folks who design airways have the option to include an MOCA for emergency use. You many not have VOR reception and you may not be able to speak with ATC. Then, there is the following: 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations. (a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below - (1) The applicable minimum altitudes prescribed in Parts 95 and 97 of this chapter; or (2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in those parts - (i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a mountainous area in part 95, an altitude of 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown; or (ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown. However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route or route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down to, but not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR concerned (based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance). The last paragraph is particulary on-point and is regulatory. Some of this has morphed in practice because IFR-certified GPS navigators are way ahead of the FAA ability to react. Thus, the language in the 7110.65, which I included in my response to Mitty. But, notice that requires a radar monitor and a lost comm procedure (if, in fact, that is ever followed is another matter). The controller is hard-pressed to provide that procedure unless he uses his MIA, which makes it an MIA route, not an MOCA route. Back to top Steven P. McNicoll Guest Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:LTNmg.34520$AB3.5290@fed1read02... Quote: The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station, nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a Victor airway within the rules. You're one for three. No law limits what may be requested. ATC can assign the MOCA beyond 22 miles of the VOR if radar navigational guidance is provided until the aircraft is within 22 miles of it and lost communications instructions are issued. If a pilot complies with that assignment he will be in violation of FAR 91.177. Back to top Steven P. McNicoll Guest Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:F7Umg.34528$AB3.5292@fed1read02... Quote: You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything? I haven't. What requests are prohibited by law? Back to top Jose Guest Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:25 am    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Quote: However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route or route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down to, but not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR concerned (based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance). The last paragraph is particulary on-point and is regulatory. Ok, but that is for actual operation, not for request. It is legal to request the MOCA, it is just not legal to operate there when further than 22 miles from the VOR. One may wonder why one would request an altitued that one does not intend to use, but no violation has been committed until the operation takes place. Jose -- The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. Back to top Sam Spade Guest Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA Steven P. McNicoll wrote: Quote: "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:LTNmg.34520$AB3.5290@fed1read02... The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station, nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a Victor airway within the rules. You're one for three. No law limits what may be requested. ATC can assign the MOCA beyond 22 miles of the VOR if radar navigational guidance is provided until the aircraft is within 22 miles of it and lost communications instructions are issued. If the MOCA is below the MIA do you believe a center controller would clear an aircraft at MOCA beyond 22 miles? Quote: If a pilot complies with that assignment he will be in violation of FAR 91.177. That often happens with MIAs and MVAs, but FAA headquarters considers it a "technical" violation. Back to top Steven P. McNicoll Guest Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:P%Xmg.34553$AB3.17954@fed1read02... Quote: If the MOCA is below the MIA do you believe a center controller would clear an aircraft at MOCA beyond 22 miles? Do you understand that he can? Do you understand that a pilot can legally request the MOCA at any point on an airway? Back to top Mitty Guest Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:56 am    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA On 6/23/2006 10:56 AM, Sam Spade wrote the following: Quote: But, it is not the MOCA the center assigns you. It's the MIA. No it's not. I have gotten lower than MIA. Just this Wednesday, in fact. It was a VFR day but I was on an IFR flight plan. Back to top Judah Guest Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Getting the MOCA "Steven P. McNicoll" <roncachamp (AT) nospamearthlink (DOT) net> wrote in news:g2Xmg.1306$ii.627 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.pas.earthlink.net: Quote: "Sam Spade" <Sam (AT) coldmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:F7Umg.34528$AB3.5292@fed1read02... You have never heard that it would be illegal to request anything? I haven't. What requests are prohibited by law? I can't think of any aviation related ones, but I believe there are certain specific requests that one can make that are indeed illegal. Most of them are legal in Nevada. Some of them are illegal even there. The law is a funny thing. 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