AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Getting around company insurance policy Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviators (General Discussions) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Iain Wilson Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 11:15 am    Post subject: Getting around company insurance policy I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the perfect opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and apply my license in a practical way. I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically 300 miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max. (nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside) In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~ 500 miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door. The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying the difference - So, let's go... ....Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from the insurance company was a "Big No". As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work this way. Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy? thanks Iain Back to top EDR Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy In article <vxlrc.23883$KE6.7822 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net>, Iain Wilson <eze311 (AT) junkfreeinter (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the perfect opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and apply my license in a practical way. I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically 300 miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max. (nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside) In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~ 500 miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door. The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying the difference - So, let's go... ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from the insurance company was a "Big No". As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work this way. Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy? Contact the National Business Aircraft Association. Back in the 1980's they put out a document kit with information on how to fly for business using private aircraft. One of the items listed was to have an insurance policy including your company as named insured. I realize that is pretty vague, but that was the one item I remember. Back to top OtisWinslow Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy Well .. one way would be to take vacation or personal time for the hours spent traveling and submit it in writing ahead of time. Then report for work at the location of the meeting. That way you're traveling on your own time. Or you could take comp time and work extra at another time so as to not lose the hours. A few years ago I listed my company as an additional insured and it was around $100 extra per year. I found that I only used the plane once so I never renewed that binder. "Iain Wilson" <eze311 (AT) junkfreeinter (DOT) net> wrote Quote: I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the perfect opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and apply my license in a practical way. I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically 300 miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max. (nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside) In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~ 500 miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door. The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying the difference - So, let's go... ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from the insurance company was a "Big No". As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work this way. Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy? thanks Iain Back to top Bill Denton Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy Why on earth anyone would worry about insurance is totally beyond me! After all, you don't think anything bad is going to happen, do you? Why bother with any aviation insurance? Nothing bad ever happens to pilots as good as you, so it's simply a waste of money. Food for thought; now on to the serious stuff... A post was made to a newsgroup seeking ways of getting around an insurance requirement. Why not simply call up an insurance company? Most of them will have about 20 guys, each of whom can give you about 100 different scams people have tried using to beat insurance requirements. None of which worked. Most of the time, when an incident occurs, any insurance company with an interest in the situation has the right to examine the vehicle, all of it's contents, and you (or your body). Let's see: a nice blue suit in a dry cleaning bag and an attaché case in the baggage compartment; no other luggage. A laptop loaded with PowerPoint slides labeled "Michigan Region". A Jensen computer technician's tool kit and two 170 GB hard drives in sealed shipping boxes; no other luggage. Try to convince the insurance company that it was not a business trip. And you have to convince them it wasn't, the insurance company (generally) doesn't have to convince anyone it was a business trip. The insurance company can deny payment based on the flight having been a business trip; if you don't like it, you have to sue the insurance company. And who do you suppose is going to have the best lawyers? A lot of people think this restriction against business travel in "personal" aircraft is stupid. I would totally agree, if it were still 1965. But at a time when someone can collect five million bucks by voluntarily pigging out on Big Macs and turning into a lard-ass, companies are more than a little unwilling to run the risk of assuming any additional liability. I'm not coming down on anybody, but I think things like this deserve some serious thought now and then... "OtisWinslow" <OtisWinslow (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Well .. one way would be to take vacation or personal time for the hours spent traveling and submit it in writing ahead of time. Then report for work at the location of the meeting. That way you're traveling on your own time. Or you could take comp time and work extra at another time so as to not lose the hours. A few years ago I listed my company as an additional insured and it was around $100 extra per year. I found that I only used the plane once so I never renewed that binder. "Iain Wilson" <eze311 (AT) junkfreeinter (DOT) net> wrote in message news:vxlrc.23883$KE6.7822 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net... I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the perfect opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and apply my license in a practical way. I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically 300 miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max. (nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside) In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~ 500 miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door. The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying the difference - So, let's go... ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from the insurance company was a "Big No". As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work this way. Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy? thanks Iain Back to top Jim Weir Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy No problem. I've been doing it for forty years in one venue or another. Tell the powers that be that you are "driving" this trip. (And don't tell them what you are "driving".) When you get back, MapQuest the mileage between your home and the meeting location. Multiply by the company allowed auto mileage or the IRS rate, whichever gives you a better number. Put the mileage on your expense report...and buck the sucker up with all the parking fees and other incidentals that you can dream up. Since you are already back and safe, nobody is going to question what you "drove" to the meeting. You will find that it will come pretty darned close to the airplane rental cost. If anybody questions why you are driving instead of flying, plead airlineophobia. (There is an actual clinical name for fear of flying on an airliner, but I don't remember what it is. Anybody else help here?) If you DON'T get back safe, the company is harmless in that they expressly forbade you to fly. The aircraft insurance company can't bitch, in that the travel was incidental to your business...you weren't paid to FLY, you were paid to MEET. No problem. Jim ->...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft ->is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from ->the insurance company was a "Big No". ->As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work ->this way. Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup) VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor http://www.rst-engr.com [email]jim (AT) rst-engr (DOT) com[/email] Back to top Tom Sixkiller Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy "Iain Wilson" <eze311 (AT) junkfreeinter (DOT) net> wrote Quote: ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from the insurance company was a "Big No". As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work this way. Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy? Yeah...work for a company (preferably founded by two ex-air force jocks and a USMC recon dude) that owns three aircraft and has strict (but doable) limits on using the companies aircraft for company business, not your own or a rental. :~) Back to top OtisWinslow Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy "Bill Denton" <bdentonchi (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I'm not coming down on anybody, Mmmmm. Could have fooled me. Realistically, who cares what the company insurance company thinks if you crashed and you're dead. You buy your own insurance to cover you, and personal policies cover personal and business use so long as it's not for hire. You can fly where you want and you're covered. And if you're not being paid for the time you're flying, then you're not working. Back to top Bill Denton Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy Hey, do whatever you want to do, it doesn't really make much difference to me. But you might want to keep this in mind: Liability extends after death, into the decedent's estate. So what you would probably end up with is your company's insuror in a pissing contest with your private insuror while the sheriff puts your wife and kids in the street while taking your house and anything else you own. All of us accept risks; there are no certainties in life. But to me, it's pretty foolish to accept a risk when you don't know what liability is attached to it... "OtisWinslow" <OtisWinslow (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: "Bill Denton" <bdentonchi (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:40ae0110$0$3112$61fed72c (AT) news (DOT) rcn.com... I'm not coming down on anybody, Mmmmm. Could have fooled me. Realistically, who cares what the company insurance company thinks if you crashed and you're dead. You buy your own insurance to cover you, and personal policies cover personal and business use so long as it's not for hire. You can fly where you want and you're covered. And if you're not being paid for the time you're flying, then you're not working. Back to top III Guest Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy A co-worker did that. Somehow, the execs found out and he was told that if he did it again he'd be fired. So, keep your mouth shut. Also, you are probably good for one trip, at least! Jim Weir <jim (AT) rst-engr (DOT) com> wrote Quote: No problem. I've been doing it for forty years in one venue or another. Tell the powers that be that you are "driving" this trip. (And don't tell them what you are "driving".) Back to top Kyle Boatright Guest Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 2:15 am    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy "Bill Denton" <bdentonchi (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Hey, do whatever you want to do, it doesn't really make much difference to me. But you might want to keep this in mind: Liability extends after death, into the decedent's estate. So what you would probably end up with is your company's insuror in a pissing contest with your private insuror while the sheriff puts your wife and kids in the street while taking your house and anything else you own. All of us accept risks; there are no certainties in life. But to me, it's pretty foolish to accept a risk when you don't know what liability is attached to it... I don't see how flying on business has any more risk to the pilot or his estate than flying to a pancake breakfast. Either you're willing to take the risk to fly, drive your car, or walk down the sidewalk, or you're not... The thing you risk by not following company policy is losing your job. Where I work, we have a company policy against using your personal aircraft for business travel. The clever/deviant/nonconformer pilots amongst us have often considered borrowing someone else's airplane to make a trip, because that wouldn't violate the letter of the policy. Intent is another thing.... KB Back to top G.R. Patterson III Guest Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 2:45 am    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy Iain Wilson wrote: Quote: ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft is not allowed. I'm a little puzzled here. You mention insurance in the subject, but this sentence sounds more like an "employee practices" deal. Is this "handbook" basically a list of what the company allows employees to do? If so, insurance has little or nothing to do with it. Rent that plane, and they will fire you. They are probably concerned about getting sued. George Patterson I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in. Back to top BTIZ Guest Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy flying on company business.. opens up the company to increased liability if something were to happen... they (companies or insurance coverage) don't like that... Those that do "allow" it, normally specify commercial and instrument ratings are required. BT "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote Quote: "Bill Denton" <bdentonchi (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:40ae82da$0$3162$61fed72c (AT) news (DOT) rcn.com... Hey, do whatever you want to do, it doesn't really make much difference to me. But you might want to keep this in mind: Liability extends after death, into the decedent's estate. So what you would probably end up with is your company's insuror in a pissing contest with your private insuror while the sheriff puts your wife and kids in the street while taking your house and anything else you own. All of us accept risks; there are no certainties in life. But to me, it's pretty foolish to accept a risk when you don't know what liability is attached to it... I don't see how flying on business has any more risk to the pilot or his estate than flying to a pancake breakfast. Either you're willing to take the risk to fly, drive your car, or walk down the sidewalk, or you're not... The thing you risk by not following company policy is losing your job. Where I work, we have a company policy against using your personal aircraft for business travel. The clever/deviant/nonconformer pilots amongst us have often considered borrowing someone else's airplane to make a trip, because that wouldn't violate the letter of the policy. Intent is another thing.... KB Back to top Teacherjh Guest Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 4:06 am    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy Quote: A lot of people think this restriction against business travel in "personal" aircraft is stupid. I would totally agree, if it were still 1965. But at a time when someone can collect five million bucks by voluntarily pigging out on Big Macs and turning into a lard-ass, companies are more than a little unwilling to run the risk of assuming any additional liability. << They let you go in a motorcycle, no? Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) Back to top John Gaquin Guest Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy "Iain Wilson" <eze311 (AT) junkfreeinter (DOT) net> wrote Quote: I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks..... Be sure to let us all know how things turn out. I think you should put a lot of effort into circumventing any rules that you personally think are silly or that inconvenience you. The world will work a lot better that way. Back to top John Gaquin Guest Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 4:13 am    Post subject: Re: Getting around company insurance policy "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote Quote: Where I work, we have a company policy against using your personal aircraft for business travel. The clever/deviant/nonconformer pilots amongst us have often considered borrowing someone else's airplane to make a trip, because that wouldn't violate the letter of the policy. Intent is another thing.... Solution is simple. Start your own company, so you can make the rules. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviators (General Discussions) All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.