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Thomas W Ping
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 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:15 am Post subject: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
--
Thomas Winston Ping
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Thomas W Ping
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:20 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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Thomas W Ping wrote:
| Quote: | I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
|
<piggybacking on my own message>
Naturally, a matter of minutes after posting this question, I found what
I was thinking about: the Fritz X missle.
--
Thomas Winston Ping
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phil hunt
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:39 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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On 25 Oct 2003 00:20:49 GMT, Thomas W Ping <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | Thomas W Ping wrote:
I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
piggybacking on my own message
Naturally, a matter of minutes after posting this question, I found what
I was thinking about: the Fritz X missle.
|
There was also the Hs 293.
Both were used mostly in the middle of the war, 1943, in the
mediterranean.
--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: <zen20000 (AT) zen (DOT) co.ku>, but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).
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Gordon
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:00 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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I have a signed photo of the pilot of the Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.
"These first true guided missiles, by current definition, are virtually unknown
today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's SD1400X, known as "Fritz
X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother bombers and radio-controlled
primarily against maritime targets. It is interesting to note that of the
fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven in the open sea) one of these, the
41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk by a Fritz X. Later, the British
battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X and put out of action for six
months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military history's first successful
guided missile attack sinking the British sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/rpav_germany_hr.html
v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew
"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."
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Thomas W Ping
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:47 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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Gordon wrote:
| Quote: | I have a signed photo of the pilot of the Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.
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That's *way* cool.
| Quote: | "These first true guided missiles, by current definition, are virtually unknown
today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's SD1400X, known as "Fritz
X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother bombers and radio-controlled
primarily against maritime targets. It is interesting to note that of the
fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven in the open sea) one of these, the
41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk by a Fritz X. Later, the British
battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X and put out of action for six
months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military history's first successful
guided missile attack sinking the British sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/rpav_germany_hr.html
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Superb link! Thanks a ton, Gordon.
--
Thomas Winston Ping
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Gordon
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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| Quote: | Superb link! Thanks a ton
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No problem, Thomas. I looked 'im up - Bernard Jopp, Dornier 215 squadron
commander. The other photo he sent me was taken upon landing - Jopp had just
deplaned and was in the middle of being heartily congratulated by his fellow
aircrews. A single moment in history, when iron bombs saw the use of their
first true replacement, a guided weapon.
v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR Aircrew
"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."
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phil hunt
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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On 25 Oct 2003 04:00:44 GMT, Gordon <krztalizer (AT) aol (DOT) comint> wrote:
| Quote: | I have a signed photo of the pilot of the Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.
"These first true guided missiles, by current definition, are virtually unknown
today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's SD1400X, known as "Fritz
X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother bombers and radio-controlled
primarily against maritime targets. It is interesting to note that of the
fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven in the open sea) one of these, the
41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk by a Fritz X. Later, the British
battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X and put out of action for six
months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military history's first successful
guided missile attack sinking the British sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."
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There's an article on Wikipedia about Fritz X, Hs 293, and related
missile projects, at:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_missiles_of_WW2>
--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: <zen20000 (AT) zen (DOT) co.ku>, but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).
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Matt Wiser
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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Thomas W Ping <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | Gordon wrote:
I have a signed photo of the pilot of the
Dornier getting the Knights Cross for
spearing the Roma with the Fritz X glide bomb.
That's *way* cool.
"These first true guided missiles, by current
definition, are virtually unknown
today. They were Henschel's Hs 293A and Ruhrstahl's
SD1400X, known as "Fritz
X." Both missiles were air-launched from mother
bombers and radio-controlled
primarily against maritime targets. It is
interesting to note that of the
fifteen battleships lost to airpower (seven
in the open sea) one of these, the
41,650-ton Italian flagship, Roma, was sunk
by a Fritz X. Later, the British
battleship, Warspite, was hit by a Fritz X
and put out of action for six
months. Fritz Xs also sunk the Royal Navy
light cruiser, Spartan, heavily
damaged the cruiser USS Savannah, and hit
the cruiser USS Philadelphia. The
Hs-293, meanwhile, was responsible for military
history's first successful
guided missile attack sinking the British
sloop, Egret, on 27 August 1943."
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/rpav_germany_hr.html
Superb link! Thanks a ton, Gordon.
--
Thomas Winston Ping
How did the Fritz-X and Hs-293 operators guide the weapon to the target? |
There had to be some flare or other cue on the bomb to tell the bombardier
where the weapon was in relation to the target.
Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!
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Thomas W Ping
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:12 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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phil hunt wrote:
| Quote: | On 25 Oct 2003 00:20:49 GMT, Thomas W Ping <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote:
Thomas W Ping wrote:
I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
piggybacking on my own message
Naturally, a matter of minutes after posting this question, I found what
I was thinking about: the Fritz X missle.
There was also the Hs 293.
Both were used mostly in the middle of the war, 1943, in the
mediterranean.
|
Yep. Found a lot of stuff on those, too. Fascinating stuff.
--
Thomas Winston Ping
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ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:12 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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In article <bncfb4$v6iq0$1 (AT) ID-126235 (DOT) news.uni-berlin.de>,
Thomas W Ping <twREMOVEping (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
|
The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
first sinking being HM sloop Egret in the Bay of Biscay (my father's
old ship - he'd left a couple of months before), with HMCS Athabaskan
damaged in the same action. Admiralty was aware of the problem posed
by these weapons - Egret had an admiralty ECM team aboard at the time of
her loss (none of them got out - in fact the doctor was the only
man to escape from below deck). There were a few more successes for the
weapon - notably the cruiser Spartan - but jamming measures rapidly
rendered it useless.
The other weapon - Fritz-X - was a guided bomb, intended for use against
armoured ships. Sank the Italian battleship Roma and crippled Warspite,
but again was rapidly rendered ineffective by ECM.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
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robert arndt
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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[email]azb (AT) aber (DOT) ac.uk[/email] (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message news:<bng6mu$e38n$1 (AT) central (DOT) aber.ac.uk>...
| Quote: | In article <bncfb4$v6iq0$1 (AT) ID-126235 (DOT) news.uni-berlin.de>,
Thomas W Ping <twREMOVEping (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:
I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
radio controlled, air launched (H-111H variant?) anti-shipping missile
that saw a *bit* of use toward the end of WWII. I can't, for the life
of me, come up with anything via Google. Did I dream this?
The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
first sinking being HM sloop Egret in the Bay of Biscay (my father's
old ship - he'd left a couple of months before), with HMCS Athabaskan
damaged in the same action. Admiralty was aware of the problem posed
by these weapons - Egret had an admiralty ECM team aboard at the time of
her loss (none of them got out - in fact the doctor was the only
man to escape from below deck). There were a few more successes for the
weapon - notably the cruiser Spartan - but jamming measures rapidly
rendered it useless.
The other weapon - Fritz-X - was a guided bomb, intended for use against
armoured ships. Sank the Italian battleship Roma and crippled Warspite,
but again was rapidly rendered ineffective by ECM.
|
The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
there is no record of any being tried in combat.
During WW2, the Germans renewed interest in guided/glide weapons
continued with the Fritz X, Hs 293, and others.
The Fritz X met with some success. On September 9, 1943 III/KG 100
sunk the Italian battleship "Roma" and heavily damaged the "Italia".
In subsequent attacks against the allies at Salerno, the Fritz X hits
were recorded on the US Cruiser "Savannah" and three destroyers. On
September 16, 1943 III/KG 100 hit the British battleship "Warspite".
It was damaged so badly it was towed to Malta and out of action for 6
months.
After the D-Day landings, the Fritz X score more hits destroying a
bridge at Pontaubault on Aug 7, 1944 and a big attack was planned
using He-177s in later August but had to be called off when the
bombers were destroyed on the ground on Aug 22, 1944 due to their
crews being stranded in Straussburg due to ;ack of transportation!
That was the end of the FrItz X.
The Hs 293, meanwhile, was first deployed in August 1943 by KG 100
operating against enemy sub hunters in the Gulf of Biscaya. On
September 30, 1943 the harbor at Ajaccio was attacked with Hs 293
armed D0 217s. Two Hs 293s fell short and landed on the waterfront...
to be reconstructed by the allies. These mistakes along with missile
failures set the program back; nevertheless, Fw 200s and He 177s flew
several successful missions with the Hs 293 which resulted in a 31%
hit rate. II/KG 100 achieved a hit rate of 55%. Various further models
of the Hs 293 were tested before the war's end including the
television-guided Hs 293D.
In addition to the two weapons above the Germans tested a wide range
of guided weapons including the L.10 "Friedensengle" glider torpedo-
450 of which were built but not used at the front.
Rob
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Jukka O. Kauppinen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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| Quote: | The Fritz X met with some success.
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Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties? Can't remember where
I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
unknown happening.
jok
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Keith Willshaw
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:14 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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"Jukka O. Kauppinen" <jukka.NOSPAMkauppinen (AT) jmp (DOT) SPAMMITPOIS.fi> wrote in
message news:bnkace$4v9$1 (AT) phys-news1 (DOT) kolumbus.fi...
| Quote: | The Fritz X met with some success.
Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties?
|
No
| Quote: | Can't remember where
I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
unknown happening.
|
So unknown several books have been written about it and a
Google search returns 222 hits
It was a British ship called the HMT Rohna carrying US troops and
was sunk off the North African coast by He-177 bombers of 11/KG-40
using Hs-293 glider bombs
Some 1,047 US troops and 102 sailors were lost.
Keith
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robert arndt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:13 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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"Jukka O. Kauppinen" <jukka.NOSPAMkauppinen (AT) jmp (DOT) SPAMMITPOIS.fi> wrote
| Quote: | The Fritz X met with some success.
Wasn't there also a case, when a German guided missile hit a US
troopship and sunk it with thousands of casualties? Can't remember where
I exactly read it, but it was written to be such large catastrophy, that
it was hushed down and filed into cabinets, so it is still pretty much
unknown happening.
jok
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SS Rohna, British troop transport hit by Hs 293. 1015 killed.
Rob
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ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:42 am Post subject: Re: German Anti-Shipping Rocket |
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In article <9b35beb1.0310271058.2049ddfc (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>,
robert arndt <teuton263 (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | azb (AT) aber (DOT) ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message news:<bng6mu$e38n$1 (AT) central (DOT) aber.ac.uk>...
In article <bncfb4$v6iq0$1 (AT) ID-126235 (DOT) news.uni-berlin.de>,
Thomas W Ping <twREMOVEping (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:
I could've sworn that a couple of years ago, I read somewhere of a
German rocket powered (don't *think* it was an air breather), possibly
The Germans made a moderate amount of use of two types of ASM from
1943 to mid-1944, after which ECM and fighter opposition pretty well
ruled further use out. The teo types were the Henschel;193 (293?),
which was a rocket-assisted HE weapon, first used in 1943, with the
The Germans actually conducted tests with glide torpedos in WW1 with
the Siemens-Shuckert torpedo glider. They were testes from Zeppelins Z
XVIII, L25, and L35. They were to be launched from 1,500 m but the
airships proved too slow; instead, production of close to 100 glide
torpedos was intended for the aircraft Zeppelin-Staaken R IV... but
there is no record of any being tried in combat.
|
This wasn't unique - by the end of WW1 the RN was trialling ship-
launched guided weapons (essentially small, unmanned, radio-controlled
aeroplanes - I've seen a picture of a S- or T- class destroyer carrying
one on a foredeck catapult but I'm nuggered if I can remember where
it was I saw it..
IIRC the idea was dropped as it was thought that improvements in AA
weapons (probably the multiple pom-pom) made it obsolete, though
I'm sure I've read that there were similar proposals in the 1930s,
probably after the Queen Bee firing trials where it proved very hard to
actually hit an aeroplane (as opposed to putting the pilot off,
which was what most AA fire of that era did).
Problem with all of these radio-controlled devices was their extreme
vunerability to jamming.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)
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