AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  flying into snow showers without deice Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Doug Carter Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:25 am    Post subject: flying into snow showers without deice I'm presuming flying IFR in light snow in a Skylane RG with no deice equipment other that the pitot heat is OK if the temp is low enough to preclude sticking, perhaps -10c or less. This comes up as I contemplate flying to Minneapolis early next week. Just is case there could be other opinions though... Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Doug Carter <douglcarer (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I'm presuming flying IFR in light snow in a Skylane RG with no deice equipment other that the pitot heat is OK if the temp is low enough to preclude sticking, perhaps -10c or less. This comes up as I contemplate flying to Minneapolis early next week. Just is case there could be other opinions though... I trained for my instrument rating downwind of Lake Ontario, New York State, during the winter of '02-'03. Most of my 17 or so hours of actual instrument conditions logged during the training were in moderate to heavy lake effect snow in temperatures from -2 to -15 degrees C. Other than a very light, white film on the leading edges, the snow never stuck to the C172 in any mass to cause concern during these, or any subsequent flights. -- Peter http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Back to top Mike Rapoport Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice If you can see then you are ok. Even heavy wet snow isn't really a problem. Sometimes clouds can be "embeded" in the snow and they may contain ice. Mike MU-2 "Doug Carter" <douglcarer (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I'm presuming flying IFR in light snow in a Skylane RG with no deice equipment other that the pitot heat is OK if the temp is low enough to preclude sticking, perhaps -10c or less. This comes up as I contemplate flying to Minneapolis early next week. Just is case there could be other opinions though... Back to top Bernd Seitter Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice From my real life experience: your wings are not the main problem - but the prop. I had 2 flights in where I had to go through light snow for landing and always the prop. was "iced" (from the spinner to half of the blades appr. - thats why the prop heating sits exactly there, if you have it - when you get out of the airplane and see it you are scared. If you have to go missed - I have my doubts that you will be able to get all the power. Now add some little ice on the wings/frame, more time in light snow, maybe even divert - I am not going to do that again. Bernd "Doug Carter" <douglcarer (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I'm presuming flying IFR in light snow in a Skylane RG with no deice equipment other that the pitot heat is OK if the temp is low enough to preclude sticking, perhaps -10c or less. Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Bernd Seitter <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: I had 2 flights in where I had to go through light snow for landing and always the prop. was "iced" (from the spinner to half of the blades Were you sure that wasn't from the clouds? -- Peter http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Back to top Doug Carter Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Bernd Seitter wrote: Quote: From my real life experience: your wings are not the main problem - but the prop. I had 2 flights in where I had to go through light snow for landing and always the prop. was "iced" (from the spinner to half of the blades do you happen to remember what the temperature was? Back to top Mike Rapoport Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Any ice on your prop came from flying through cloud, not snow. Snow is already frozen and doesn't stick. Mike MU-2 "Bernd Seitter" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote Quote: From my real life experience: your wings are not the main problem - but the prop. I had 2 flights in where I had to go through light snow for landing and always the prop. was "iced" (from the spinner to half of the blades appr. - thats why the prop heating sits exactly there, if you have it - when you get out of the airplane and see it you are scared. If you have to go missed - I have my doubts that you will be able to get all the power. Now add some little ice on the wings/frame, more time in light snow, maybe even divert - I am not going to do that again. Bernd "Doug Carter" <douglcarer (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: I'm presuming flying IFR in light snow in a Skylane RG with no deice equipment other that the pitot heat is OK if the temp is low enough to preclude sticking, perhaps -10c or less. Back to top Bernd Seitter Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice I do not remember the temperatures (but it was not too cold, maybe -5C Celcius on the ground - the ice did not melt from the prop). The cloud layers were thin (maybe 2000ft) - both flights happened in southern Germany during winter time, both alreay after sunset (quite early here in winter time ;-) No - I am not sure if the ice came from the clouds. But then I would have seen more ice pickup in the clouds on the wings, and this was really just small amount, compared to the "ice block" on the prop. I have been to similar and more heavy icing conditions, but with an appropriate equip. aircraft. There you could see the ice pick up very clearly on the radar-dome under the wing (C210) while flying - on the leading edge of the wing it is difficult to see (IMHO). On the ground I could see parts of the wings iced while the prop. was clean as it could be. Bernd "Mike Rapoport" <rapopor1 (AT) ix (DOT) netcom.com> wrote : Quote: Any ice on your prop came from flying through cloud, not snow. Snow is already frozen and doesn't stick. Mike MU-2 Back to top Matt Whiting Guest Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Mike Rapoport wrote: Quote: Any ice on your prop came from flying through cloud, not snow. Snow is already frozen and doesn't stick. Wet snow can stick. A snowflake that falls into warm air (above freezing air) doesn't instantly turn to water. Parts of it may be water while other parts are frozen. This can stick to the airframe, or, particularly on certain Cessnas, quickly clog the air intake. I never had trouble in the 182 below about 25F, but I quickly clogged the air intake in heavy snow at about 32-34F once. Matt Back to top Mike Rapoport Guest Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice If it is melting then the temp is above 0Cand the water content isn't supercooled and it won't stick. It can certainly clog the intake though. Mike MU-2 "Matt Whiting" <whiting (AT) chilitech (DOT) net> wrote Quote: Mike Rapoport wrote: Any ice on your prop came from flying through cloud, not snow. Snow is already frozen and doesn't stick. Wet snow can stick. A snowflake that falls into warm air (above freezing air) doesn't instantly turn to water. Parts of it may be water while other parts are frozen. This can stick to the airframe, or, particularly on certain Cessnas, quickly clog the air intake. I never had trouble in the 182 below about 25F, but I quickly clogged the air intake in heavy snow at about 32-34F once. Matt Back to top Matt Whiting Guest Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Mike Rapoport wrote: Quote: If it is melting then the temp is above 0Cand the water content isn't supercooled and it won't stick. It can certainly clog the intake though. Well, it CAN stick as I've collected it a number of times on 172 and 182 airplanes. I can't explain for certainty why, but I'm guessing it is the combination of water and ice crystals in the same snowflake that mix and stick upon impact. You don't fly much in PA in the winter without encountering snow of all forms (and there are many forms of snow). Most doesn't stick, but some does if the conditions are right. Matt Back to top CloudyIFR Guest Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Well with four years of flying in Montana I will tell you that no matter what type of precipitation, if the static air temperature (SAT) is anywhere from +3 degrees celsius to -17 degrees celsius and flying in IMC the potential for icing exists. I fly about 800 hours a year in pistion twins certified for moderate icing conditions. The worst icing encounter I ever got was in a heavy snow storm, about 4" in 10 minutes. Did the boots work, yea, but did the ice go away, nope! Also, if flying on the lee side of mountains or over water the potential goes up exponentionally! If you don't have an airplane certified for icing conditions please don't becomen a statistic and go fishing, your life and the life of your passengers aren't worth it. Curtis Montana Back to top CloudyIFR Guest Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice Oh, If you do get into the ice, either move your airplane 180 degrees immediately where there was no ice, this would constitute an emergency in an airplane not capable of flight into known icing. Or move the airplane up or down 4000' will guarantee exiting icing conditions, however, in my experience moving 2000' feet will exit those conditions. I haven't had to declare an emergency due to ice, yet, however on several occasions I've been in mountain wave with ice accumulation and haven't been able to maintain altitude, however, ATC was kind and issued a block altitude and I was able to drift up and down at my minumum controllable airspeed. Yes this was in a twin airplane capable for flight into known icing conditions. Even with the slightest amount of ice you need a way to rid the ice off the windscreen to see to land. We have a plane with alcohol windows and I guess the alcohol wasn't fresh and contained water, so it just made matters worse. Guess it's why we get paid the big bucks to fly! Best of luck and be safe and smart. Curtis Back to top John R. Copeland Guest Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice "CloudyIFR" <suterc (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Or move the airplane up or down 4000' will guarantee exiting icing conditions, however, in my experience moving 2000' feet will exit those conditions. Curtis Normally that's true, but there's no such guarantee. I've seen weird inversions giving rain and multiple freezing levels spanning a vertical range of 10,000 feet. Back to top Mike Rapoport Guest Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: flying into snow showers without deice From a strictly theoretical viewpoint it is diffucult to see how snow can be both melting (implying temp>0C) and freezing to the wing (implying temp <0C) at the same time. NASA studies have never be able to create icing above 0C. Mike MU-2 "Matt Whiting" Quote: Mike Rapoport wrote: If it is melting then the temp is above 0Cand the water content isn't supercooled and it won't stick. It can certainly clog the intake though. Well, it CAN stick as I've collected it a number of times on 172 and 182 airplanes. I can't explain for certainty why, but I'm guessing it is the combination of water and ice crystals in the same snowflake that mix and stick upon impact. You don't fly much in PA in the winter without encountering snow of all forms (and there are many forms of snow). Most doesn't stick, but some does if the conditions are right. 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