AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Flyboys? Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Military Aircraft View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Cub Driver Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:53 am    Post subject: Flyboys? I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Thanks! all the best -- Dan Ford email: [email]cubdriver (AT) operamail (DOT) com[/email] see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com Back to top C Knowles Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? Nope, but I have had it thrown in my face once or twice. By a ground pounder. Curt "Cub Driver" <pipercubforum (AT) eudoramail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Thanks! all the best -- Dan Ford email: [email]cubdriver (AT) operamail (DOT) com[/email] see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com Back to top Dudley Henriques Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? "Cub Driver" <pipercubforum (AT) eudoramail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Well, I realize you have asked for a "military pilot's" opinion, but considering everything involved with how that relates to me, I'll answer the post anyway I just finished the book. My reaction was similar to yours, but slightly different perhaps. The term itself was quite common as you know back during the war. It was used by the pounders and civilians as well. I remember my mother using the term on occasion. As for the Bradley; if I was reviewing the book, ( I don't "review" books any more I would come away with the feeling that he is overusing the term both in the book as you have noted, and as well by assigning it through inference if nothing else in a completely naval context, which in my opinion is incorrect. I believe the use of the term was generic in assignment. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Back to top Dudley Henriques Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? "George Z. Bush" <georgezbush (AT) charter (DOT) net.nospam> wrote Quote: "Cub Driver" <pipercubforum (AT) eudoramail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:hpottvgfmssfb17jigm8ldv50k1nd2p2cb (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Thanks! all the best -- Dan Ford email: [email]cubdriver (AT) operamail (DOT) com[/email] see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com We may differ on other subjects, we we sure as hell don't differ on this one. I was a pilot during WWII, the Korean War, and the Viet Nam war, and I never once called myself or thought of myself as a "flyboy". The people I flew with may have been young, but they were men, and the overwhelming majority of them didn't even vaguely resemble the irresponsible bird-brains that the term infers. It may very well be what the green-eyed ground pounders called us, but usually not to our faces, particularly if we outranked them. I always looked on that term as a put down, however mistaken it might have been. When the book first came out and got public attention, I mentioned this to my wife, and she told me that she thought I was making too much of it. I'm glad to learn that there are at least two of us who think otherwise. BTW, I haven't read the book nor do I plan to. If he got that wrong, I can't help but think that the rest of his book is probably full of other things that he didn't quite get right. George Z. Although I'm sure there were those who might have used this term in a derogatory way, it should be noted that the term itself is so generic that it's use was certainly not limited to a negative context alone. I'm fairly certain that there were many who used this term in an extremely positive sense as the term related to them personally, and their positive feelings about those who were fighting above them or for them, and in many cases, protecting them. I know that in my years of association with those who have flown in harm's way, I can't remember anyone having a violent reaction to the term. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Back to top ArtKramr Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? Quote: Subject: Re: Flyboys? From: "Dudley Henriques" [email]dhenriques (AT) nowhere (DOT) net[/email] Date: 12/16/03 7:03 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <n9FDb.1136$Ts5.299 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net "Cub Driver" news:hpottvgfmssfb17jigm8ldv50k1nd2p2cb (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Well, I realize you have asked for a "military pilot's" opinion, but considering everything involved with how that relates to me, I'll answer the post anyway I just finished the book. My reaction was similar to yours, but slightly different perhaps. The term itself was quite common as you know back during the war. It was used by the pounders and civilians as well. I remember my mother using the term on occasion. As for the Bradley; if I was reviewing the book, ( I don't "review" books any more I would come away with the feeling that he is overusing the term both in the book as you have noted, and as well by assigning it through inference if nothing else in a completely naval context, which in my opinion is incorrect. I believe the use of the term was generic in assignment. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Right you are Dudley. Flyboys was ususally a term of admiration and envy. The best, the brightest and the chosen. The elite of the armed forces. Of course tone of voice could mitigate that And it applied to all who flew, not just pilots., Ground pounders applied to infantry. But those in an AAC squadron who were not on flying status were called "Paddlefeet" I think the guy who wrote Flyboys knew whereof he spoke Regards, Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Back to top ArtKramr Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? Quote: Subject: Re: Flyboys? From: "C Knowles" [email]cknowles (AT) prodigy (DOT) net[/email] Date: 12/16/03 4:21 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <bNCDb.36926$UR6.3269 (AT) newssvr32 (DOT) news.prodigy.com Nope, but I have had it thrown in my face once or twice. By a ground pounder. Curt "Cub Driver" news:hpottvgfmssfb17jigm8ldv50k1nd2p2cb (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Thanks! all the best -- Dan Ford email: [email]cubdriver (AT) operamail (DOT) com[/email] see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com Flyboy was a term of admiration and envy. Of course tone of voice had something to do with it too. Regards, Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Back to top Dudley Henriques Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? "ArtKramr" <artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Subject: Re: Flyboys? From: "Dudley Henriques" [email]dhenriques (AT) nowhere (DOT) net[/email] Date: 12/16/03 7:03 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <n9FDb.1136$Ts5.299 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net "Cub Driver" news:hpottvgfmssfb17jigm8ldv50k1nd2p2cb (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Well, I realize you have asked for a "military pilot's" opinion, but considering everything involved with how that relates to me, I'll answer the post anyway I just finished the book. My reaction was similar to yours, but slightly different perhaps. The term itself was quite common as you know back during the war. It was used by the pounders and civilians as well. I remember my mother using the term on occasion. As for the Bradley; if I was reviewing the book, ( I don't "review" books any more I would come away with the feeling that he is overusing the term both in the book as you have noted, and as well by assigning it through inference if nothing else in a completely naval context, which in my opinion is incorrect. I believe the use of the term was generic in assignment. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Right you are Dudley. Flyboys was ususally a term of admiration and envy. The best, the brightest and the chosen. The elite of the armed forces. Of course tone of voice could mitigate that And it applied to all who flew, not just pilots., Ground pounders applied to infantry. But those in an AAC squadron who were not on flying status were called "Paddlefeet" I think the guy who wrote Flyboys knew whereof he spoke Regards, I think the term "flyboys" is indicative of many of like terms that sprung up throughout the war. I believe you are absolutely correct in saying that any meaning or connotation attached to such terms would have to include exactly who was using the term and the context under which the term was being used. To arbitrarily assign either a positive or negative meaning to such a term without context being involved is in my judgment incorrect. On one hand, you can have a disgruntled soldier looking up into the sky saying to his buddy, "Flyboys are over rated idiots!". Then on the other hand you have a woman standing on a London street corner in her bombed out neighborhood watching a Spit dispatching a Ju88 muttering to herself, "Thank GOD for the flyboys!" Both are valid uses of the term; one is negative, one positive. It's just that kind of thing......a slang expression that brings one closer to what one might not have the "right" words to express......a way of expressing an intimate contact where intimate contact might not exist. I do believe that Bradley really overworked the term in "Flyboys". His continuous use of the term throughout the book reminded me of some of these rock groups where the group seemingly finds a chord or harmony run that sounds REAL good to them, so they work it over and over and over and over and over.....until it's been done so many times that the initial benefit on the ear has been lost through sheer repetition. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Back to top Yeff Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? On 16 Dec 2003 16:17:44 GMT, ArtKramr wrote: Quote: Flyboy was a term of admiration and envy. Of course tone of voice had something to do with it too. Sort of like when your TI in basic training calls you "hero..." ("What are you, some type of he-ro?") -Jeff B. yeff at erols dot com Back to top ArtKramr Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? Quote: Subject: Re: Flyboys? From: "Dudley Henriques" [email]dhenriques (AT) nowhere (DOT) net[/email] Date: 12/16/03 8:28 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <DoGDb.1232$Ts5.721 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net "ArtKramr" news:20031216105937.14167.00001113 (AT) mb-m28 (DOT) aol.com... Subject: Re: Flyboys? From: "Dudley Henriques" [email]dhenriques (AT) nowhere (DOT) net[/email] Date: 12/16/03 7:03 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <n9FDb.1136$Ts5.299 (AT) newsread2 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net "Cub Driver" news:hpottvgfmssfb17jigm8ldv50k1nd2p2cb (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... I just picked up a copy of Flyboys at BJ's Wholesale Club. Read the first two chapters last night. I was amazed that the author uses the term Flyboys throughout the book, or at least throughout the first chapter. I'd assumed it was just a cute title, but no: "Flyboys were over Chici Jima" etc. When I was growing up--which was about the time of these events--"flyboy" was a derisive name. It's what a ground-pounder would say when he complained about the soft life pilots (indeed air crews) had, compared to the infantry in the mud. Anyone else ever heard it this way? Any mllitary pilots here ever refer to themselves as flyboys or Flyboys? Well, I realize you have asked for a "military pilot's" opinion, but considering everything involved with how that relates to me, I'll answer the post anyway I just finished the book. My reaction was similar to yours, but slightly different perhaps. The term itself was quite common as you know back during the war. It was used by the pounders and civilians as well. I remember my mother using the term on occasion. As for the Bradley; if I was reviewing the book, ( I don't "review" books any more I would come away with the feeling that he is overusing the term both in the book as you have noted, and as well by assigning it through inference if nothing else in a completely naval context, which in my opinion is incorrect. I believe the use of the term was generic in assignment. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Right you are Dudley. Flyboys was ususally a term of admiration and envy. The best, the brightest and the chosen. The elite of the armed forces. Of course tone of voice could mitigate that And it applied to all who flew, not just pilots., Ground pounders applied to infantry. But those in an AAC squadron who were not on flying status were called "Paddlefeet" I think the guy who wrote Flyboys knew whereof he spoke Regards, I think the term "flyboys" is indicative of many of like terms that sprung up throughout the war. I believe you are absolutely correct in saying that any meaning or connotation attached to such terms would have to include exactly who was using the term and the context under which the term was being used. To arbitrarily assign either a positive or negative meaning to such a term without context being involved is in my judgment incorrect. On one hand, you can have a disgruntled soldier looking up into the sky saying to his buddy, "Flyboys are over rated idiots!". Then on the other hand you have a woman standing on a London street corner in her bombed out neighborhood watching a Spit dispatching a Ju88 muttering to herself, "Thank GOD for the flyboys!" Both are valid uses of the term; one is negative, one positive. It's just that kind of thing......a slang expression that brings one closer to what one might not have the "right" words to express......a way of expressing an intimate contact where intimate contact might not exist. I do believe that Bradley really overworked the term in "Flyboys". His continuous use of the term throughout the book reminded me of some of these rock groups where the group seemingly finds a chord or harmony run that sounds REAL good to them, so they work it over and over and over and over and over.....until it's been done so many times that the initial benefit on the ear has been lost through sheer repetition. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Flyboys was often used with a warm element of effection attached to it. Regards, Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Back to top ArtKramr Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? Quote: Subject: Re: Flyboys? From: Yeff [email]zoomie (AT) fastmail (DOT) fm[/email] Date: 12/16/03 8:34 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: On 16 Dec 2003 16:17:44 GMT, ArtKramr wrote: Flyboy was a term of admiration and envy. Of course tone of voice had something to do with it too. Sort of like when your TI in basic training calls you "hero..." ("What are you, some type of he-ro?") -Jeff B. yeff at erols dot com Yeah. That too. (grin) Regards, Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Back to top Chris Mark Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? Flyboys was a generic term for aircrew. You might hear it used when you went into a cafe in your uniform and sat down at the counter. The waitress, handing you a menu, would say, "Hiya, flyboy!" Or you might be at a train station trying to get transportation and the ticket booth guy might turn to somebody and say, "Hey, I got a bunch of flyboys here who need to get to Greenville." No offense intended or implied. The term is beaten into the ground in the book. Just for the hell of it, I looked in a dictionary of slang to see if the term is there. It is. The entry says, in part, "An aviator, esp. a glamorous, heroic or daring aviator. In WWII usu. used ironically. Now derog., implying snobbishness, youth and cautiousness." Chris Mark Back to top Dudley Henriques Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? "Chris Mark" <xmarx467 (AT) aol (DOT) compost> wrote Quote: The entry says, in part, "An aviator, esp. a glamorous, heroic or daring aviator". Yup!! That would be the right one all right!!!! ))) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Back to top ArtKramr Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? Quote: Subject: Re: Flyboys? From: "Dudley Henriques" [email]dhenriques (AT) nowhere (DOT) net[/email] Date: 12/16/03 11:17 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <7TIDb.486$wL6.170 (AT) newsread1 (DOT) news.atl.earthlink.net "Chris Mark" news:20031216141129.16134.00000559 (AT) mb-m22 (DOT) aol.com... The entry says, in part, "An aviator, esp. a glamorous, heroic or daring aviator". Yup!! That would be the right one all right!!!! ))) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt Aw shucks. Tweren't nuthin'. (shy grin) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer Back to top John R Weiss Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? "Chris Mark" <xmarx467 (AT) aol (DOT) compost> wrote... Quote: Flyboys was a generic term for aircrew. You might hear it used when you went into a cafe in your uniform and sat down at the counter. The waitress, handing you a menu, would say, "Hiya, flyboy!" One crusty ol' CAG MO used to refer to us as "boy pilots" -- especially after telling us how we broke "his" planes again... Back to top VE1E0@NOspam.rac.ca Guest Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Flyboys? "C Knowles" <cknowles (AT) prodigy (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: Nope, but I have had it thrown in my face once or twice. By a ground pounder. Curt I can confirm that that's the connotation in the Canadian Military. -Gord. "I'm trying to get as old as I can, and it must be working 'cause I'm the oldest now that I've ever been" Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Military Aircraft All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next Page 1 of 6   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.