AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  fixed wing or rotary wing? Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Helicopters and rotary wing aircrafts View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Craig Campbell Guest Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:12 pm    Post subject: fixed wing or rotary wing? I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier. I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it right first time. Can anyone please give me feedback on this? Thanks Craig Campbell Back to top 601XL Builder Guest Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Craig Campbell wrote: Quote: I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier. I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it right first time. Can anyone please give me feedback on this? Thanks Craig Campbell If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper. Back to top Craig Campbell Guest Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it? "601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiacona@suddenlinkDOTnet> wrote in message news:12v5ps4g0ma5b8a (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com... Quote: Craig Campbell wrote: I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier. I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it right first time. Can anyone please give me feedback on this? Thanks Craig Campbell If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper. Back to top Stuart & Kathryn Fields Guest Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Craig: I found that I had some Unlearning to do going from the "Stuck Wing" to the helicopter. I haven't flown a " Stuck Wing" since I got my helo add-on. The Stuck Wing license did help eliminate some cross country navigation training that would have been more expensive in the helo. -- Kathy Fields Experimental Helo magazine P. O. Box 1585 Inyokern, CA 93527 (760) 377-4478 (760) 408-9747 general and layout cell (760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell eh (AT) iwvisp (DOT) com www.vkss.com www.experimentalhelo.com sfkf (AT) iwvisp (DOT) com "Craig Campbell" <craigicam (AT) oh (DOT) rr.com> wrote in message news:45f2eec6$0$16924$4c368faf (AT) roadrunner (DOT) com... Quote: I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it? "601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiacona@suddenlinkDOTnet> wrote in message news:12v5ps4g0ma5b8a (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com... Craig Campbell wrote: I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier. I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it right first time. Can anyone please give me feedback on this? Thanks Craig Campbell If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper. Back to top Don W Guest Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:54 am    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Craig Campbell wrote: Quote: I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it? "601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiacona@suddenlinkDOTnet> wrote in message news:12v5ps4g0ma5b8a (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com... Craig Campbell wrote: I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier. I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it right first time. Can anyone please give me feedback on this? Thanks Craig Campbell If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper. If you don't plan on flying fixed wing, I'm not sure it would be cheaper to get the fixed wing license first. It's true that you can learn to fly, navigate, and work the radios in $75/hr airplanes instead of $200-$250/hr helicopters, but you will still have to do the transition to rotorcraft for your helicopter license. The way I read Part 61.109 (copied below), the minimum number hours you would have to have in a helicopter for the transition would be: 3 hours (Combined Dual Night/Cross country) 2 hours (10 Dual takeoffs and landings to stop) 3 hours (Dual training prep for check ride) 10 hours (solo) ===== 18 hours helicopter minimum If you could learn everything you needed to learn on the helicopter in that time, it would be incredible. A more likely transition scenario would be something like 30 hours. So in that case, you would save ten or so hours of helicopter time, by spending 40 hours of fixed wing time. Doing the math with the following assumptions: Fixed Wing = C150 @ $75/hr wet Fixed Wing Instructor = $30/hr Helicopter = R22 @ $225/hr wet Heli Instructor = $30/hr Heli Transition = 15 Dual, 10 Solo Fixed wing plus Rotary route: Fixed Wing (20*$105)+(20*$75) Helicopter (15*$255)+(10*$225) ============================== Total = $9,675 + Ground Instruction and you would have a Fixed and Rotary Wing Rating Heli only route: Helicopter (20*$255)+(20*225) ============================= Total = $9600 + Ground Instruction and you would have Rotary Wing only rating So it would probably be slightly more expensive to start in fixed wing and transition to helicopter. As far as the easy part, I found it relatively easy to transition from fixed wing to the R22. Regards, Don W. Part 61.109 (c) c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must include at least— (1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter; (2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes— (i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and (ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport. (3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a helicopter, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date of the test; and (4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least— (i) 3 hours cross-country time; (ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and (iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower. Back to top Craig Campbell Guest Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Thanks for the break down of $'s Don. Okay so I suppose my next question is.... Would it be of any benefit to me trying to get a helicopter pilot job having also become rated in fixed wing? Am I a more attractive applicant? Or are the two mutually exclusive? Craig Campbell "Don W" <donw_s11atswbelldotnet (AT) figure (DOT) it.out> wrote in message news:f2EIh.6578$M65.5005 (AT) newssvr21 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... Quote: Craig Campbell wrote: I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it? "601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiacona@suddenlinkDOTnet> wrote in message news:12v5ps4g0ma5b8a (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com... Craig Campbell wrote: I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier. I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it right first time. Can anyone please give me feedback on this? Thanks Craig Campbell If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper. If you don't plan on flying fixed wing, I'm not sure it would be cheaper to get the fixed wing license first. It's true that you can learn to fly, navigate, and work the radios in $75/hr airplanes instead of $200-$250/hr helicopters, but you will still have to do the transition to rotorcraft for your helicopter license. The way I read Part 61.109 (copied below), the minimum number hours you would have to have in a helicopter for the transition would be: 3 hours (Combined Dual Night/Cross country) 2 hours (10 Dual takeoffs and landings to stop) 3 hours (Dual training prep for check ride) 10 hours (solo) ===== 18 hours helicopter minimum If you could learn everything you needed to learn on the helicopter in that time, it would be incredible. A more likely transition scenario would be something like 30 hours. So in that case, you would save ten or so hours of helicopter time, by spending 40 hours of fixed wing time. Doing the math with the following assumptions: Fixed Wing = C150 @ $75/hr wet Fixed Wing Instructor = $30/hr Helicopter = R22 @ $225/hr wet Heli Instructor = $30/hr Heli Transition = 15 Dual, 10 Solo Fixed wing plus Rotary route: Fixed Wing (20*$105)+(20*$75) Helicopter (15*$255)+(10*$225) ============================== Total = $9,675 + Ground Instruction and you would have a Fixed and Rotary Wing Rating Heli only route: Helicopter (20*$255)+(20*225) ============================= Total = $9600 + Ground Instruction and you would have Rotary Wing only rating So it would probably be slightly more expensive to start in fixed wing and transition to helicopter. As far as the easy part, I found it relatively easy to transition from fixed wing to the R22. Regards, Don W. Part 61.109 (c) c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must include at least— (1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter; (2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes— (i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and (ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport. (3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a helicopter, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date of the test; and (4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least— (i) 3 hours cross-country time; (ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and (iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower. Back to top Steve L. Guest Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Quote: is.... Would it be of any benefit to me trying to get a helicopter pilot job having also become rated in fixed wing? Am I a more attractive applicant? Or are the two mutually exclusive? Pretty much the latter. And if you go back to the costs, then there is no doubt that exclusively helicopter time will be "cheaper". To get a helo job, you need helo hours. That's what insurance asks for - usually nobody is interested in your fixed wing hours. Of course you could get your helicopter commercial with only 50 hours in helicopters and the remaining 100 in something else. But first you probably won't be good enough to pass the checkride and second you need 200 hours in helicopters anyway to get your first job which is going to be instructing. Maybe even 300 hours (common insurance requirement). So, if you are not interested in fixed wing, go with helicopter hours wherever possible. Don't even use flight simulators - you need the real hours. Save your money for the real hours, don't waste it for simulator, fixed wing... IF you are serious about it. But try fixed wing also (intro flight)! Back to top B4RT Guest Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Craig, I'm dual rated and own both a turbine helicopter and a plane. I did helicopter first, and am firmly convinced it was the right thing to do. Airplanes and helicopters only have 3 things in common from a learning perspective: rules n regs, radios, and cruise flight. The rest of the stuff is different enough that extrapolating one to the other can lead to problems. Even some the regs are different enough to give you a headache in an exam. I had logged a lot of time in rotorcraft before I did the transition to fixed wing. It was a breeze and only took a week. I can't imagine the inverse being true. The most difficult part for me was switching hands and flying with the stick in my left hand and power on the right. Still today I love flying military and aerobatic planes because I have a lot more finesse with my right hand on the stick. The biggest time eaters in rotorcraft training are IGE hovering, autorotations, and approach to hover, and very little translates from airplanes to choppers with these. I've talked to a few people who are dual rated and have never run across anyone who did fixed->rotorcraft in the minimum time prescribed by the FAA, so the money savings thing is a probably a practical myth. The best way to save money is to NOT do any training until you've saved enough to do all of the fight time in a concentrated block of time. Pass your written exam first while youre saving up the money. Having the exam out of the way will relieve you of a lot of pressure so you can focus on the expensive flght time. If you only take one or two lessons a week it will probably take you at least 30% more flight hours to complete. Bart "Craig Campbell" <craigicam (AT) oh (DOT) rr.com> wrote in message news:45f2caf8$0$28105$4c368faf (AT) roadrunner (DOT) com... Quote: I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier. I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it right first time. Can anyone please give me feedback on this? Thanks Craig Campbell Back to top Don W Guest Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? B4RT wrote: Quote: I'm dual rated and own both a turbine helicopter and a plane. I did helicopter first, and am firmly convinced it was the right thing to do. Airplanes and helicopters only have 3 things in common from a learning perspective: rules n regs, radios, and cruise flight. The rest of the stuff is different enough that extrapolating one to the other can lead to problems. Even some the regs are different enough to give you a headache in an exam. I had logged a lot of time in rotorcraft before I did the transition to fixed wing. It was a breeze and only took a week. I can't imagine the inverse being true. We are pretty much in agreement. I've been licensed in fixed wing since 1977, and recently started flying helicopters for fun. I was able to fly the helicopter in cruise flight right away, and was able to basically hover IGE after 1 hour of instruction. Basically means it wasn't the prettiest hover, but pretty much stayed in one place ;-) At the end of the second hour of instruction, I could lift up, taxi to the pad, and take off without the instructor touching anything, and was also starting to be able to transition from approach to hover. Somewhere around 5 hours, things were pretty well clicking, and we were doing high speed taxis, autos with power recovery, etc. I was flying the R22 all the time except when the instructor went to demonstrate something new. I was bringing the R22 back from the pad to its parking spot among 6 other helis, and doing the necessary tail spin to put it properly in its spot At that point, my instructor told me that he felt I was ready to solo, but the schools policy required 15 hours of dual because of insurance. That was back in '04. Quote: The biggest time eaters in rotorcraft training are IGE hovering, autorotations, and approach to hover, and very little translates from airplanes to choppers with these. I've talked to a few people who are dual rated and have never run across anyone who did fixed->rotorcraft in the minimum time prescribed by the FAA, so the money savings thing is a probably a practical myth. Agreed. The best you can hope for is fixed and rotorcraft at basically the same price as rotorcraft only. Also, I think for a student who was new to flying, doing both would confuse the issue. In my case, I'd been flying fixed so long that I could concentrate on the differences with the Heli. Quote: The best way to save money is to NOT do any training until you've saved enough to do all of the fight time in a concentrated block of time. Pass your written exam first while youre saving up the money. Having the exam out of the way will relieve you of a lot of pressure so you can focus on the expensive flght time. If you only take one or two lessons a week it will probably take you at least 30% more flight hours to complete. This is good advice. Quote: Bart Don W. Back to top The OTHER Kevin in San Di Guest Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 09:03:11 -0400, "B4RT" <noahbody (AT) nospam (DOT) org> wrote: Quote: Craig, I'm dual rated and own both a turbine helicopter and a plane. I did helicopter first, and am firmly convinced it was the right thing to do. Airplanes and helicopters only have 3 things in common from a learning perspective: rules n regs, radios, and cruise flight. The rest of the stuff is different enough that extrapolating one to the other can lead to problems. Even some the regs are different enough to give you a headache in an exam. Yep. One of the guys I was training with was a 500+ hour fixed wing pilot and he had a little difficulty with approaches and simulated engine failures because of all the airplane time. He did have a bit of a "head start" because he was familiar with flying in general and didn't need to "re-learn" how to navigate or communicate. Quote: The biggest time eaters in rotorcraft training are IGE hovering, autorotations, and approach to hover, and very little translates from airplanes to choppers with these. I've talked to a few people who are dual rated and have never run across anyone who did fixed->rotorcraft in the minimum time prescribed by the FAA, so the money savings thing is a probably a practical myth. Depends on the individual of course... The guy I mentioned above did manage the transition in the minimum time allowed, but I'm sure having access to a "sim" here at work 24/7 helped quite a bit. Quote: The best way to save money is to NOT do any training until you've saved enough to do all of the fight time in a concentrated block of time. Pass your written exam first while youre saving up the money. Having the exam out of the way will relieve you of a lot of pressure so you can focus on the expensive flght time. If you only take one or two lessons a week it will probably take you at least 30% more flight hours to complete. Definitely. Fly at least 3 times/week and spend every other non-flying day studying as much as possible. Get your written test out of the way (one less thing to worry about) but keep up on the studies. I made a giant stack of flashcards and had my kids drill me at least an hour every night. The practice tests available online help a lot as well. www.ipilot.com has a subscription based test that allows you to test on specific areas or take a full blown practice test. I think it's $29.95 for 1 year's access. www.mywrittenexam.com offers practice tests without the ability to concentrate on specific areas of study. It's free as well. The ASA Test Prep stuff (available at pretty much any pilot store) is good as well. One book that helped me with the weather stuff was "The complete idiot's guide to weather". There's not a lot of weather related questions on the written test, but a good understanding of the weather is a good idea for flying in any case. Back to top Steve R Guest Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? "B4RT" <noahbody (AT) nospam (DOT) org> wrote in message news:et3j2p$rgu (AT) news (DOT) thunderstone.com... Quote: Craig, The best way to save money is to NOT do any training until you've saved enough to do all of the fight time in a concentrated block of time. Pass your written exam first while youre saving up the money. Having the exam out of the way will relieve you of a lot of pressure so you can focus on the expensive flght time. If you only take one or two lessons a week it will probably take you at least 30% more flight hours to complete. Bart This is, as far as I'm concerned, the best advise of all. I can't comment on the rest because I don't have enough overall experience to but I've seen too many folks through the years start the process, run out of money, save up more, and then start again. The problem is, you loose proficiency while saving up more money and have to redo part of what you'd learned before when you do get back into it. Every time you do that it's adding unnecessary cost to an already expensive process. Also, having that darned written test under your belt "before" you start flight training is priceless. You've got the book learning done and can concentrate 100% on the fun stuff, the flight training. Much of the book learning didn't fully click in for me anyway until I was putting it to practice in the aircraft. Oh, I could answer the questions on the test just fine but it wasn't until I was in the aircraft that it "really" made sense. I can't imagine how it would have been trying to get the concepts down in my head from the book and trying to put them into practice in the aircraft at the same time. Maybe it wouldn't have been any big deal but I'm "very" happy with how it worked out getting the written done before I started flying. Good luck & Fly Safe, Steve R. Back to top Stefan L. Guest Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Quote: put it properly in its spot At that point, my instructor told me that he felt I was ready to solo, but the schools policy required 15 hours of dual because of insurance. That was back in '04. Were you training in the US? I wonder how a flight school can do this! The SFAR 73 requires non-rotorcraft rated pilots to get 20h of dual instruction prior to solo a R22. So the least amount of hours for a rotorcraft helicopter add on would be 30 hours! Back to top Don W Guest Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Stefan L. wrote: Quote: put it properly in its spot At that point, my instructor told me that he felt I was ready to solo, but the schools policy required 15 hours of dual because of insurance. That was back in '04. Were you training in the US? I wonder how a flight school can do this! The SFAR 73 requires non-rotorcraft rated pilots to get 20h of dual instruction prior to solo a R22. So the least amount of hours for a rotorcraft helicopter add on would be 30 hours! I just checked into this and you are correct. My instructor must have been confused about the reason he couldn't sign me off for solo, or perhaps I misunderstood him. That would change the calculations in my earlier post to make the helicopter only rating less expensive. Don W. Back to top Steve R Guest Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? "Don W" <donw_s11atswbelldotnet (AT) figure (DOT) it.out> wrote in message news:kHLJh.9691$jx3.142 (AT) newssvr25 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... Quote: Stefan L. wrote: put it properly in its spot At that point, my instructor told me that he felt I was ready to solo, but the schools policy required 15 hours of dual because of insurance. That was back in '04. Were you training in the US? I wonder how a flight school can do this! The SFAR 73 requires non-rotorcraft rated pilots to get 20h of dual instruction prior to solo a R22. So the least amount of hours for a rotorcraft helicopter add on would be 30 hours! I just checked into this and you are correct. My instructor must have been confused about the reason he couldn't sign me off for solo, or perhaps I misunderstood him. That would change the calculations in my earlier post to make the helicopter only rating less expensive. Don W. Doesn't SFAR 73 apply "only" to the R22? Back to top Don W Guest Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: fixed wing or rotary wing? Steve R wrote: Quote: "Don W" <donw_s11atswbelldotnet (AT) figure (DOT) it.out> wrote in message news:kHLJh.9691$jx3.142 (AT) newssvr25 (DOT) news.prodigy.net... Stefan L. wrote: put it properly in its spot At that point, my instructor told me that he felt I was ready to solo, but the schools policy required 15 hours of dual because of insurance. That was back in '04. Were you training in the US? I wonder how a flight school can do this! The SFAR 73 requires non-rotorcraft rated pilots to get 20h of dual instruction prior to solo a R22. So the least amount of hours for a rotorcraft helicopter add on would be 30 hours! I just checked into this and you are correct. My instructor must have been confused about the reason he couldn't sign me off for solo, or perhaps I misunderstood him. That would change the calculations in my earlier post to make the helicopter only rating less expensive. Don W. Doesn't SFAR 73 apply "only" to the R22? In scanning it, it appeared to apply to the R22 and the R44. Don W. 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