AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  First approach in actual Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Wizard of Draws Guest Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:56 pm    Post subject: First approach in actual Today was the first time I've ever been established on approach, in actual. A bit unnerving if I say so myself. Partly because it's been a month since I've been able to fly. We (another instrument pilot and I) started down into La Grange (KLGC) after we were cleared for the approach and had to intercept the localizer while still in the clouds. I over-banked a bit at first. We only had to descend through about 2000' of cloud deck, but it sure felt like a lot more. We broke out at ~1500' AGL, a little to the right of the localizer and above the slope. I think it will be a lot more hours before I attempt any single pilot IFR. -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic� http://www.wizardofdraws.com http://www.cartoonclipart.com Back to top David B. Cole Guest Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual Wizard of Draws <jeffbREMOVE (AT) REMOVEwizardofdraws (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Today was the first time I've ever been established on approach, in actual. A bit unnerving if I say so myself. Partly because it's been a month since I've been able to fly. We (another instrument pilot and I) started down into La Grange (KLGC) after we were cleared for the approach and had to intercept the localizer while still in the clouds. I over-banked a bit at first. We only had to descend through about 2000' of cloud deck, but it sure felt like a lot more. We broke out at ~1500' AGL, a little to the right of the localizer and above the slope. I think it will be a lot more hours before I attempt any single pilot IFR. Sounds like a good plan with regards to acquiring more time. Due to knee surgery I hadn't flown in about month, so yesterday I went up with my instructor to brush up and get back in the groove. While we didn't have much IMC during the approach phase, we made most of the return trip back in IMC. After getting the IR my first trip without a CFI in IMC was with another pilot, so I'm a fan of this gradual approach into single pilot IMC. Just having another pilot next to you that could help out if things started going wrong definitely increases your confidence. While I have a few guys that I will go up with as safety pilots, it's my goal to go up with my instructor every 2-3 months. I also asked him to call me on any day where the ceilings are near minimums and he doesn't have a student, even if it means ducking out of work. :-) Congrats on the first step. Dave Back to top Dan Luke Guest Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual "Wizard of Draws" wrote: Quote: I think it will be a lot more hours before I attempt any single pilot IFR. [sings] "Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby!" The first time you take off by yourself and plow into a low overcast while turning is a real sphincter tightener. That experience will make you understand how close to death you *really* are - in a way no CFII can quite get across. I wish I could tell you that you will be able to train to the point where your first solo experiences will be "no sweat," but I just don't think so. Yes, you are right to ease into it. Practice in IMC with an instructor every chance you get; that will help, but the time is going to come when you are going to have to just do it. From reading your posts, I suspect you will do fine. -- Dan C-172RG at BFM Back to top Wizard of Draws Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual On 10/11/04 5:37 PM, in article [email]10mlv8t404g9vf2 (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com[/email], "Dan Luke" <c172rg (AT) xyz (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: "Wizard of Draws" wrote: I think it will be a lot more hours before I attempt any single pilot IFR. [sings] "Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby!" The first time you take off by yourself and plow into a low overcast while turning is a real sphincter tightener. That experience will make you understand how close to death you *really* are - in a way no CFII can quite get across. This was my biggest learning experience from this flight. Descending *and* turning to intercept the localizer while in the clouds was what caught my attention and made me realize how serious this could get, and how quickly, especially when I saw how much I had over-banked initially. Quote: I wish I could tell you that you will be able to train to the point where your first solo experiences will be "no sweat," but I just don't think so. Yes, you are right to ease into it. Practice in IMC with an instructor every chance you get; that will help, but the time is going to come when you are going to have to just do it. From reading your posts, I suspect you will do fine. It's funny how much I'm wishing for IMC, now that I have the rating. All the primary students in the area are probably ready to stick pins in little Wizard of Draws' voodoo dolls. -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic� http://www.wizardofdraws.com http://www.cartoonclipart.com Back to top David Brooks Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual "Wizard of Draws" <jeffbREMOVE (AT) REMOVEwizardofdraws (DOT) com> wrote Quote: On 10/11/04 5:37 PM, in article [email]10mlv8t404g9vf2 (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com[/email], "Dan Luke" <c172rg (AT) xyz (DOT) net> wrote: "Wizard of Draws" wrote: I think it will be a lot more hours before I attempt any single pilot IFR. [sings] "Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby!" The first time you take off by yourself and plow into a low overcast while turning is a real sphincter tightener. That experience will make you understand how close to death you *really* are - in a way no CFII can quite get across. This was my biggest learning experience from this flight. Descending *and* turning to intercept the localizer while in the clouds was what caught my attention and made me realize how serious this could get, and how quickly, especially when I saw how much I had over-banked initially. That's when you really, really understand why you did those unusual attitude drills. Back to top papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDO Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual I've done a few single-pilot IMC flights (mostly flying 50-100 miles IMC to get in the clear) shortly after earning my rating. While I don't have any problem with normal operations in the soup, it's the unknowns of potentential task saturation that I'm mostly concerned with. I'm hoping to get some good solid IMC practice with another IR pilot before I head out on another 2.5hour IMC on a 4 hour x-c with a 600', 2mi LOC/DME at the end. It's all about building confidence, and having someone to hold the plane for a minute while you collect your charts/plates/frequencies/weather briefing/wits would be a nice safety-net to task saturation. I believe most people call them "auto-pilots," but my plane is not so equipped... :) -Cory Dan Luke <c172rg (AT) xyz (DOT) net> wrote: : "Wizard of Draws" wrote: : > I think it will be a lot more hours before I attempt any single pilot IFR. : [sings] "Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby!" : The first time you take off by yourself and plow into a low overcast while : turning is a real sphincter tightener. That experience will make you : understand how close to death you *really* are - in a way no CFII can quite : get across. : I wish I could tell you that you will be able to train to the point where : your first solo experiences will be "no sweat," but I just don't think so. : Yes, you are right to ease into it. Practice in IMC with an instructor : every chance you get; that will help, but the time is going to come when you : are going to have to just do it. From reading your posts, I suspect you : will do fine. : -- : Dan : C-172RG at BFM -- ************************************************************************* * Cory Papenfuss * * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************************************* Back to top Dan Luke Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual <papenfussDIESPAM (AT) juneauDOTmeDOTvt (DOT) edu> wrote: Quote: I've done a few single-pilot IMC flights (mostly flying 50-100 miles IMC to get in the clear) shortly after earning my rating. While I don't have any problem with normal operations in the soup, it's the unknowns of potentential task saturation that I'm mostly concerned with. Yep, I agree. I've done quite a few single-pilot approaches in actual IMC, and the most important thing I've learned is that there is a fine line between being ahead of the situation and being behind it. Staying ahead starts way before arrival in the terminal area. If you're not completely ready by the time you get that first vector to final or, worse, when you arrive at the IAF of a full approach, you are in serious jeopardy of getting irretrievably behind. Task saturation can result, and I believe this is the cause of many fatal IFR accidents. Quote: It's all about building confidence, and having someone to hold the plane for a minute while you collect your charts/plates/frequencies/weather briefing/wits would be a nice safety-net to task saturation. I believe most people call them "auto-pilots," but my plane is not so equipped... What are you going to do when you don't have that? Don't get me wrong, I'm a firm believer that a good autopilot reduces the risk of single-pilot IFR operations - I use mine extensively - but what if it dies? Shouldn't you be able to hand fly the procedures to minimums without help? -- Dan C172RG at BFM Back to top papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDO Guest Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual Dan Luke <c172rg (AT) pantsbellsouth (DOT) net> wrote: : > It's all about building confidence, and having someone to : > hold the plane for a minute while you collect your : > charts/plates/frequencies/weather : > briefing/wits would be a nice safety-net to task saturation. I : > believe most people : > call them "auto-pilots," but my plane is not so equipped... :) : What are you going to do when you don't have that? Don't get me wrong, : I'm a firm believer that a good autopilot reduces the risk of : single-pilot IFR operations - I use mine extensively - but what if it : dies? Shouldn't you be able to hand fly the procedures to minimums : without help? : -- : Dan : C172RG at BFM I agree completely. Perhaps my statement was poorly written so as to be misunderstood. My plane does not have an autopilot, nor do I believe it makes sense to add one (can't polish a turd... PA-28-180 isn't a hard IFR machine). If one has an autopilot, I belive that the transition to single-pilot IFR might be a bit easier, since you can let George fly while you collect yourself/charts/wits/etc. Just during the initial learning and confidence-building stage it could be useful as a "backup".... You'd still better be able to do it all by hand, though. Autopilots are good if used as a tool, but I think lots of people depend on them. -Cory -- ************************************************************************* * Cory Papenfuss * * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************************************* Back to top Doug Guest Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual One thing I do on an approach. I write down the minimum descent altitude on a sticky and put it on my panel. I cannot go below that. At 50' above that altitude, I start looking for the runway. It is all too easy to just blow throught the MDA (DH) and keep coming down. Important to guard against that. Wizard of Draws <jeffbREMOVE (AT) REMOVEwizardofdraws (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Today was the first time I've ever been established on approach, in actual. A bit unnerving if I say so myself. Partly because it's been a month since I've been able to fly. We (another instrument pilot and I) started down into La Grange (KLGC) after we were cleared for the approach and had to intercept the localizer while still in the clouds. I over-banked a bit at first. We only had to descend through about 2000' of cloud deck, but it sure felt like a lot more. We broke out at ~1500' AGL, a little to the right of the localizer and above the slope. I think it will be a lot more hours before I attempt any single pilot IFR. Back to top Dan Luke Guest Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual <papenfussDIESPAM (AT) juneauDOTmeDOTvt (DOT) edu> wrote: Quote: My plane does not have an autopilot, nor do I believe it makes sense to add one (can't polish a turd... PA-28-180 isn't a hard IFR machine). Whoa! What's wrong with flying hard IFR in a PA-28-180? I fly "hard IFR" (not sure what your definition is) in a 172RG; it does just fine. A Cherokee 180 should do just as well - unless you're talking about doing it in the mountains...? Quote: If one has an autopilot, I belive that the transition to single-pilot IFR might be a bit easier, since you can let George fly while you collect yourself/charts/wits/etc. No question. The first thing I had installed in my airplane when I bought it was a 2-axis, rate-based autopilot, but not just for "training wheels" purposes. I still use it on every approach, unless I'm practicing hand flying. Quote: Just during the initial learning and confidence-building stage it could be useful as a "backup".... You'd still better be able to do it all by hand, though. Autopilots are good if used as a tool, but I think lots of people depend on them. Yep. -- Dan C-172RG at BFM Back to top Dan Luke Guest Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual "Doug" wrote: Quote: It is all too easy to just blow throught the MDA (DH) and keep coming down. Important to guard against that. Very good point. Back to top David Megginson Guest Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual Dan Luke wrote: Quote: Whoa! What's wrong with flying hard IFR in a PA-28-180? I fly "hard IFR" (not sure what your definition is) in a 172RG; it does just fine. A Cherokee 180 should do just as well - unless you're talking about doing it in the mountains...? In fact, a fixed-gear plane like a Cherokee or Skyhawk is safer for IFR in many ways. Take a look at the NTSB reports and try to find a *single* case of a fixed-gear plane crashing after a vacuum pump failure in IMC while flying IFR over the past 10 or 20 years. My Warrior II, with its slow approach speed, high drag, sluggish roll rate and lack of any overbanking tendency, makes a very easy IFR platform for a relatively inexperienced pilot, even in very unpleasant conditions (including some severe turbulence last summer). Quote: Just during the initial learning and confidence-building stage it could be useful as a "backup".... You'd still better be able to do it all by hand, though. Autopilots are good if used as a tool, but I think lots of people depend on them. Yep. I wouldn't mind one, but it's not at the top of the list. If I move up to a retract, though, it will be on my need-to-have list. All the best, David Back to top Wizard of Draws Guest Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:10 am    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual On 10/13/04 5:35 PM, in article [email]1b3f4ae6.0410131335.59ac97bd (AT) posting (DOT) google.com[/email], "Doug" <anothername (AT) access4less (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: One thing I do on an approach. I write down the minimum descent altitude on a sticky and put it on my panel. I cannot go below that. At 50' above that altitude, I start looking for the runway. It is all too easy to just blow throught the MDA (DH) and keep coming down. Important to guard against that. Good idea, I'll do that. -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic� http://www.wizardofdraws.com http://www.cartoonclipart.com Back to top papenfussDIESPAM@juneauDO Guest Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual In article <10mr89h5984463c (AT) news (DOT) supernews.com> you wrote: : <papenfussDIESPAM (AT) juneauDOTmeDOTvt (DOT) edu> wrote: : > My plane does not have an autopilot, nor do I believe it : > makes sense to add one (can't polish a turd... : > PA-28-180 isn't a hard IFR machine). : Whoa! What's wrong with flying hard IFR in a PA-28-180? I fly "hard IFR" : (not sure what your definition is) in a 172RG; it does just fine. A : Cherokee 180 should do just as well - unless you're talking about doing it : in the mountains...? My usual trip here in SW VA is to head up to the flatlands (OH, IL, WI)... that requires going over some 6000 MEA mountains. Not huge, but high enough to get a good temperature drop in the winter. That basically means IMC between Nov-Mar is serious icing consideration. I'm not saying that a high-end trainer (PA-28-180, 172RG seem to fit in that category) can't slog around for hours in hard IMC, but it has to be benign enough IMC. They just generally don't have enough power to deal with any ice, or equipment to deal with EMBED TSRA in the summertime. : > If one has an autopilot, I belive that the transition to single-pilot IFR : might be a bit easier, : > since you can let George fly while you collect yourself/charts/wits/etc. : No question. The first thing I had installed in my airplane when I bought : it was a 2-axis, rate-based autopilot, but not just for "training wheels" : purposes. I still use it on every approach, unless I'm practicing hand : flying. That's where I'm at... Not seeing the need to fork out the cash for an autopilot, but it would be nice to have as "backup training wheels" just in case you need to think a moment in single-pilot IMC. For the most part, I enjoy hand-flying in the soup... just don't get to do enough. -Cory -- ************************************************************************* * Cory Papenfuss * * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************************************* Back to top David Megginson Guest Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: First approach in actual [email]papenfussDIESPAM (AT) juneauDOTmeDOTvt (DOT) edu[/email] wrote: Quote: My usual trip here in SW VA is to head up to the flatlands (OH, IL, WI)... that requires going over some 6000 MEA mountains. Not huge, but high enough to get a good temperature drop in the winter. That basically means IMC between Nov-Mar is serious icing consideration. I'm not saying that a high-end trainer (PA-28-180, 172RG seem to fit in that category) can't slog around for hours in hard IMC, but it has to be benign enough IMC. They just generally don't have enough power to deal with any ice, or equipment to deal with EMBED TSRA in the summertime. I agree that a Cherokee or Skyhawk cannot fly in all IMC conditions, but I don't agree that a high-performance plane without support for known icing should be flying in much IMC that a Cherokee or Skyhawk cannot already handle. Of course it's essential to have a way to detect embedded CB in real time (not just through an uplink) if you're flying in IMC, but that's not a function of the plane's power -- a low-powered plane like a Cherokee or Skyhawk can have a Stormscope or Strikefinder just as easily as a Seneca or Cessna 206. As for icing, I agree that extra power can give you a bit more escape time as well as the option of climbing (for a few minutes, anyway), but I think it's easily overshadowed by other considerations. I don't mind flying in cloud in my 160 hp Warrior around the freezing point when I have warmer air or good VMC below me (still above MEA), but I cannot imagine doing that while flying over mountains in a plane without certified deicing equipment, no matter how powerful my engine. All the best, David Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.