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Mark Hansen
Guest
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 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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I have been wanting to get going on my Instrument training for
some time now, but was holding off while I was trying to gain
membership in a local flying club.
As it turns out, the club wanted someone with a lot more hours than
I have, so it just wasn't going to work out.
In the meantime, I've been reading the FAA handbooks (Instrument
Flying Handbook and Instrument Procedures Handbook, if I'm remembering
the names properly), along with other training aids, like the Gleim's
Instrument Knowledge Test Prep book, etc.
Once it was clear that I wasn't going to get into the local club,
I decided to just go ahead and begin training with the FBO's rental
fleet. Although this will be more money, it does solve a number of
issues I would have had using the club airplane.
So, I trotted down to my local FBO at Sacramento Executive (SAC)
and signed up for their Part 141 course. Pretty pricey, at a little
over $300 to get started, but at least I'm on the road now. One
of the things I'm hoping to get out of the Part 141 training is
more structure in the individual lessons. For example, being clear
before the lesson of the lesson objectives, and how I should
accomplish them. This was never really done in my primary training.
Unfortunately, my first lesson won't be until April 14th. I guess
I'll use the time to go over the initial ground lessons (I'm supposed
to complete three before my first lesson --- the logic of which I
don't completely understand, by the way) and continue work on the
Knowledge test materials.
I plan to do two lessons per week because I want to make sure
I have time to do all the home study (I still have to work for
a living, after all  ) One lesson will be Sunday around
noon, while the other will be Thursday evening.
I really like the idea of having at least one of the lessons
at night. I hope this will make it easier to ignore the outside
visual references while wearing the flip shades.
I'll let you know how things progress.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA
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Jack Allison
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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Congratulations on taking the first step towards the instrument rating
Mark. Good for you. Just be prepared to have all mental capacity
sucked from your brain and you'll be ok :-)
Re: flying at night, I've done quite a bit of that and I'm starting to
find that I reach my mental absorption point faster due to flying at
6:00 after a day at work. It's not really bad but something I've
noticed the past couple of weeks as I'm putting together more and more
of the pieces. One thing to make sure of for night instrument flying is
that your cockpit lighting is good. I use one of the lip lights which
helps a ton. If the Archer had better instrument lighting, it would
help but I know that without the lip light, it would be very tough
reading approach plates and enroute charts.
Two lessons a week is probably the minimum. That's about what I've done
and it's going ok. I wish I could do more but the schedule only allows
twice a week.
Keep us posted.
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci
(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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On 3/28/2005 12:31, Jack Allison wrote:
| Quote: | Congratulations on taking the first step towards the instrument rating
Mark. Good for you. Just be prepared to have all mental capacity
sucked from your brain and you'll be ok 
|
Yes, I've been reading your posts. So far, I can only imagine what
it must be like to fly a hold... I've heard that, although you still
need to know how to do them, you're not likely to be required to fly
a hold while on actual IFR flights. Is that right?
| Quote: |
Re: flying at night, I've done quite a bit of that and I'm starting to
find that I reach my mental absorption point faster due to flying at
6:00 after a day at work. It's not really bad but something I've
noticed the past couple of weeks as I'm putting together more and more
of the pieces. One thing to make sure of for night instrument flying is
that your cockpit lighting is good. I use one of the lip lights which
helps a ton. If the Archer had better instrument lighting, it would
help but I know that without the lip light, it would be very tough
reading approach plates and enroute charts.
|
I found that I really wanted better lighting after my last night
flight (to Willows) while flying strictly by pilotage, so I bought
one of those headlight gizmos (little LED lights that strap to
your forehead) - in addition to the other lighting aids I currently
use. I'm hopeful that this will help.
As for the mental workload, I guess I'll have to see if I can
tell a difference between the night lesson after work and the
day lesson on Sunday. It will be like comparing apples to oranges,
but we'll see how they feel.
| Quote: |
Two lessons a week is probably the minimum. That's about what I've done
and it's going ok. I wish I could do more but the schedule only allows
twice a week.
|
I wonder if the FBO suggested two per week simply because the
CFII didn't have space for anything more? I remember when I signed
up for my primary training, the same office manager suggested,
rather strongly, that I do three lessons per week. I thought it
strange that she suggested two per week for the Instrument training.
Will do.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA
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A Lieberman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:11:52 -0800, Mark Hansen wrote:
Hi Mark,
Welcome to the IFR club. I enjoy watching others post as I re-live my own
past IFR training.
| Quote: | Yes, I've been reading your posts. So far, I can only imagine what
it must be like to fly a hold... I've heard that, although you still
need to know how to do them, you're not likely to be required to fly
a hold while on actual IFR flights. Is that right?
|
Unfortunately not true. No sooner then I get in the clag by myself on one
of my first single pilot IFR, doing local IFR work, somebody got caught on
top. I was ask to hold at the JAN VOR so that ATC could clear this
obviously nervous pilot. I held for 15 minutes when I decided I could be
more "productive" doing more approaches. Plus, I had been in actual for an
hour, and I was looking forward to seeing the ground. Now don't get me
wrong, getting put in the holding pen is not common, but it sure happened
quickly to me!
| Quote: | As for the mental workload, I guess I'll have to see if I can
tell a difference between the night lesson after work and the
day lesson on Sunday. It will be like comparing apples to oranges,
but we'll see how they feel.
|
For me, anything more then two times a week was too much! I wanted the IFR
ticket quickly, but I also started to see my own limitations (or saturation
limits). One good thing about my plane is that I don't have an ADF, don't
have a IFR GPS, so I was limited to localizer, VOR and ILS approaches,
which made my training quite a bit easier.
| Quote: | Two lessons a week is probably the minimum. That's about what I've done
and it's going ok. I wish I could do more but the schedule only allows
twice a week.
|
I personally would not suggest more then two times a week. See above.
| Quote: | rather strongly, that I do three lessons per week. I thought it
strange that she suggested two per week for the Instrument training.
|
Not strange at all. I was told that VFR flying is equivelant to getting
your college degree, and getting your IFR rating is equivelant to getting a
masters degree. After what I have been through, I really believe it.
Look forward to reading your posts!
Allen
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Roy Smith
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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Mark Hansen <meh (AT) NOSPAMunify (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, I've been reading your posts. So far, I can only imagine what
it must be like to fly a hold... I've heard that, although you still
need to know how to do them, you're not likely to be required to fly
a hold while on actual IFR flights. Is that right?
|
I get hold around New York. Not all the time, but frequently enough
that it pays to know how to do them :-)
I got one just last week. OK, we weren't IFR, but we asked for a
practice approach into HFD. Controller said we were number 5 for the
airport and parked us in a hold over the IAF, 1000 feet above the
procedure turn altitude. We did a couple of laps then got cleared for
the approach.
Another hold I've gotten more than once is departing HPN heading north
or east. If you're not at (IIRC) 5000 by Carmel VOR, you get to climb
in a hold until you reach that altitude. On a hot summer day in a
fully loaded low-performance plane, it can sometimes be an issue.
Normally, though, delaying vectors seems to be ATC's preferred tool.
I've gotten "holds" that are nothing more than "give me a left 360
right there".
When you do get a real-life hold, nobody seems to care if you fly
perfect 1-minute inbound legs like you're training to do. If it
floats your boat to fine-tune the hold until you've got the leg length
and WCA perfectly adjusted, fine. If not, just keep swimming around
on the right side of the fix and use the freed-up brain cycles to do
something useful like get a weather update, brief the upcoming
approach, or double-check your fuel reserves. If you've got DME or
GPS, make life easy on yourself and ask for 5 mile legs instead of
timing anything.
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Jack Allison
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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Mark Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, I've been reading your posts. So far, I can only imagine what
it must be like to fly a hold... I've heard that, although you still
need to know how to do them, you're not likely to be required to fly
a hold while on actual IFR flights. Is that right?
|
Sounds like it's a mixed answer. Many folks have never flown a hold,
many have. I look at it the same way I do basic maneuvers. You really
should be able to do them no matter what so practice, practice,
practice. The last thing I'll want to do flying IFR is be told to hold
somewhere then have my mind go blank as I try to figure out the entry
and how to run laps around the holding fix. Actually, holds are kind of
fun (in that twisted sort of instrument flying way). It's a nice
feeling to get established on one trip around the hold then hit your EFC
time crossing the holding fix.
| Quote: | I found that I really wanted better lighting after my last night
flight (to Willows) while flying strictly by pilotage, so I bought
one of those headlight gizmos (little LED lights that strap to
your forehead) - in addition to the other lighting aids I currently
use. I'm hopeful that this will help.
Try it and see. |
Another thing I found very helpful was a yoke board. I scored one off
eBay, way less than retail.
Looking forward to some company in the "Ouch, my brain hurts"
department. It's fun and you learn a ton along the way.
--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci
(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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On 3/28/2005 13:11, Mark Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | On 3/28/2005 12:31, Jack Allison wrote:
Congratulations on taking the first step towards the instrument rating
Mark. Good for you. Just be prepared to have all mental capacity
sucked from your brain and you'll be ok :-)
Yes, I've been reading your posts. So far, I can only imagine what
it must be like to fly a hold... I've heard that, although you still
need to know how to do them, you're not likely to be required to fly
a hold while on actual IFR flights. Is that right?
|
Thanks for all the responses on this question. I should clarify
that I wasn't really asking if it was important to learn holds;
Since the FAA deems them important, I guess I'll take the time ;-)
As with other maneuvers that I've found difficult, I expect I'll
be spending a lot of practice time on these. From my point of view,
holds are one of those buggers that will probably always come at
the absolute worst time, and I would much rather be able to do
them 'in my sleep'.
Thanks again!
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA
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Markus Voget
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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[email]roy (AT) panix (DOT) com[/email] (Roy Smith) wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Hansen <meh (AT) NOSPAMunify (DOT) com> wrote:
Yes, I've been reading your posts. So far, I can only imagine what
it must be like to fly a hold...
When you do get a real-life hold, nobody seems to care if you fly
perfect 1-minute inbound legs like you're training to do.
|
Apparently there are instructors who teach simplified holding techniques,
too. A good example can be found in this story:
http://www.campbells.org/Airplanes/Diary/day2.html
The complete story also makes for a nice read:
http://www.campbells.org/Airplanes/Diary/toc.html
Greetings,
Markus
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Charlie Derk
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:52 am Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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Congrats Mark!
I just finished my instrument rating in January. I started in August
and flew, on average, twice a week. I finished up in about 5 months.
Over the Christmas holiday I had a about 4 days of lessons. It was a
lot easier than I expected it to be.
I did it part 141 as well. The FBO that I trained with used the
Cessna/King ground school. It was a ton of CD-ROMS and I was able to do
them all at home. It was well worth the $300. I passed my written and
checkride on the first try.
Haven't gotten to fly alone in any actual conditions - too much icing in
the northeast over the winter. but I do file IFR anytime I go more than
20 miles away. i've also been taking safety pilots up and logging lots
of hood time.
you'll definately feel satisfied after months of training pays off and
you get your rating.
good luck!
charlie
Mark Hansen wrote:
| Quote: | I have been wanting to get going on my Instrument training for
some time now, but was holding off while I was trying to gain
membership in a local flying club.
As it turns out, the club wanted someone with a lot more hours than
I have, so it just wasn't going to work out.
In the meantime, I've been reading the FAA handbooks (Instrument
Flying Handbook and Instrument Procedures Handbook, if I'm remembering
the names properly), along with other training aids, like the Gleim's
Instrument Knowledge Test Prep book, etc.
Once it was clear that I wasn't going to get into the local club,
I decided to just go ahead and begin training with the FBO's rental
fleet. Although this will be more money, it does solve a number of
issues I would have had using the club airplane.
So, I trotted down to my local FBO at Sacramento Executive (SAC)
and signed up for their Part 141 course. Pretty pricey, at a little
over $300 to get started, but at least I'm on the road now. One
of the things I'm hoping to get out of the Part 141 training is
more structure in the individual lessons. For example, being clear
before the lesson of the lesson objectives, and how I should
accomplish them. This was never really done in my primary training.
Unfortunately, my first lesson won't be until April 14th. I guess
I'll use the time to go over the initial ground lessons (I'm supposed
to complete three before my first lesson --- the logic of which I
don't completely understand, by the way) and continue work on the
Knowledge test materials.
I plan to do two lessons per week because I want to make sure
I have time to do all the home study (I still have to work for
a living, after all ) One lesson will be Sunday around
noon, while the other will be Thursday evening.
I really like the idea of having at least one of the lessons
at night. I hope this will make it easier to ignore the outside
visual references while wearing the flip shades.
I'll let you know how things progress.
|
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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On 3/30/2005 17:52, Charlie Derk wrote:
| Quote: | Congrats Mark!
I just finished my instrument rating in January. I started in August
and flew, on average, twice a week. I finished up in about 5 months.
Over the Christmas holiday I had a about 4 days of lessons. It was a
lot easier than I expected it to be.
I did it part 141 as well. The FBO that I trained with used the
Cessna/King ground school. It was a ton of CD-ROMS and I was able to do
them all at home. It was well worth the $300. I passed my written and
checkride on the first try.
Haven't gotten to fly alone in any actual conditions - too much icing in
the northeast over the winter. but I do file IFR anytime I go more than
20 miles away. i've also been taking safety pilots up and logging lots
of hood time.
you'll definately feel satisfied after months of training pays off and
you get your rating.
good luck!
charlie
|
Thanks, Charlie. I know that I worried a lot about the PP-ASEL written,
and it turned out to be almost too easy. I plan to do the same type
of studying for the instrument written, but I expect it will be
harder, so we'll see...
It's really great to hear that you got through it so easily; it makes
me see that it is possible ;-)
There's just something about feeling confident to operate in a complex
environment, isn't there? I really can't wait to get there myself!
Thanks again for your comments.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA
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Andrew Sarangan
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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A Lieberman <lieberma (AT) myself (DOT) com> wrote in
news:m65ojuz5zgqh.1emyqkiyuhawp.dlg (AT) 40tude (DOT) net:
| Quote: |
Not strange at all. I was told that VFR flying is equivelant to
getting your college degree, and getting your IFR rating is equivelant
to getting a masters degree. After what I have been through, I really
believe it.
|
You are kidding right? A VFR ticket is equivalent to a bachelor's degree,
and IFR is a masters? So, does that make a commercial ticket equivalent to
a PhD? What about a CFI and ATP? They must be super-humans :-)
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Doug
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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One issue I have found with holds. All the emphasis seems to be on
entering the hold. But you should know what "hold Northwest of FIX on
the 315 radial means". Which side of FIX, why, and what the ATC callout
is for all 4 possible holds at FIX on the 315 radial (or two possible
holds on the 315 radial if FIX is a VOR). I've seen a lot of pilots who
were mixed up as to just where northwest of FIX is and ATC's call out
means. Ask them the question as to where the hold actually is, and you
get confusion. But, they can recite how to ENTER the hold. But what
good does that do if you don't know where to hold is? Strange but true.
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Steven P. McNicoll
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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"Doug" <anothername (AT) access4less (DOT) net> wrote
| Quote: |
One issue I have found with holds. All the emphasis seems to be on
entering the hold. But you should know what "hold Northwest of FIX on
the 315 radial means".
|
Isn't that self-explanatory?
| Quote: |
Which side of FIX,
|
The northwest side.
| Quote: |
why, and what the ATC callout is for all 4 possible holds at FIX on the
315 radial
(or two possible holds on the 315 radial if FIX is a VOR).
|
There are only two possible holds northwest of FIX, it doesn't matter if FIX
is a VOR or an intersection or a DME fix.
| Quote: |
I've seen a lot of pilots who
were mixed up as to just where northwest of FIX is and ATC's call out
means.
|
What do they mix it up with? There's no ambiguity.
| Quote: |
Ask them the question as to where the hold actually is, and you
get confusion. But, they can recite how to ENTER the hold. But what
good does that do if you don't know where to hold is? Strange but true.
|
I think it untrue.
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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On 4/4/2005 13:04, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
| Quote: | "Doug" <anothername (AT) access4less (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:1112644286.233199.188170 (AT) o13g2000cwo (DOT) googlegroups.com...
One issue I have found with holds. All the emphasis seems to be on
entering the hold. But you should know what "hold Northwest of FIX on
the 315 radial means".
Isn't that self-explanatory?
Which side of FIX,
The northwest side.
why, and what the ATC callout is for all 4 possible holds at FIX on the
315 radial
(or two possible holds on the 315 radial if FIX is a VOR).
There are only two possible holds northwest of FIX, it doesn't matter if FIX
is a VOR or an intersection or a DME fix.
|
By that, I assume you mean you could have a standard hold, or a left-hand
hold, correct?
| Quote: |
I've seen a lot of pilots who
were mixed up as to just where northwest of FIX is and ATC's call out
means.
What do they mix it up with? There's no ambiguity.
|
Perhaps they confuse the "position from the fix" with whether or not
"left or right turns" are required. In the reading I'm doing, I'm being
told to understand clearly that one has nothing to do with the other.
| Quote: |
Ask them the question as to where the hold actually is, and you
get confusion. But, they can recite how to ENTER the hold. But what
good does that do if you don't know where to hold is? Strange but true.
I think it untrue.
|
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA
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Steven P. McNicoll
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Finally decided to begin Instrument training |
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"Mark Hansen" <meh (AT) NOSPAMunify (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: |
By that, I assume you mean you could have a standard hold, or a left-hand
hold, correct?
|
Correct.
| Quote: |
Perhaps they confuse the "position from the fix" with whether or not
"left or right turns" are required. In the reading I'm doing, I'm being
told to understand clearly that one has nothing to do with the other.
|
If the controller states "left turns" the direction of turns in the pattern
is to the left. If the controller states "right turns" the direction of
turns in the pattern is to the right. If the controller does not specify
the direction of turns then turns are to be made to the right.
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