AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  F-14 vs. F-15 accel. Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Naval Aviation View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Guy Alcala Guest Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:43 am    Post subject: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. Any of you Turkey drivers (let's say A or B) ever have a drag race with an F-15, or compare Dash-1/NATOPS and see which one had better 1g Ps? I was just wondering which could out-accelerate the other assuming similar configuration Let's say air superiority with 8 missiles, or else both clean). Assuming a subsonic start I'd expect the F-15A to take the lead initially, but then once it hits transonic and the Tom's wings start to go back, I'd think the latter might pull even or ahead. Any opinions based on practical experience out there? Guy Back to top Pechs1 Guest Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. << Any of you Turkey drivers (let's say A or B) ever have a drag race with an F-15, or compare Dash-1/NATOPS and see which one had better 1g Ps? I was just wondering which could out-accelerate the other assuming similar >><BR><BR> I would say the F-15 would beat an 'A' but would lose to a 'B', 'D' model. The wings on the F-14 start back way before transonic, besides, If I was racing I'd manual aft/airsource off as sonn as I went to AB. I have chased down an F-15 in a A-4F+ tho, made him turn and then spanked him pretty bad. Low-ish, slow, The F-15 isn't great in that arena. P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer Back to top John Carrier Guest Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race. F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to fight in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS. R / John "Guy Alcala" <g_alcala (AT) junkpostoffice (DOT) pacbell.net> wrote Quote: Any of you Turkey drivers (let's say A or B) ever have a drag race with an F-15, or compare Dash-1/NATOPS and see which one had better 1g Ps? I was just wondering which could out-accelerate the other assuming similar configuration Let's say air superiority with 8 missiles, or else both clean). Assuming a subsonic start I'd expect the F-15A to take the lead initially, but then once it hits transonic and the Tom's wings start to go back, I'd think the latter might pull even or ahead. Any opinions based on practical experience out there? Guy Back to top Guy Alcala Guest Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. John Carrier wrote: Quote: According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race. F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to fight in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS. My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout to Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in a tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts for some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @ 12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better endurance at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I figure the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it was enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple, I don't know. Guy Back to top John Carrier Guest Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. "Guy Alcala" <g_alcala (AT) junkpostoffice (DOT) pacbell.net> wrote Quote: John Carrier wrote: According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race. F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to fight in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS. My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout to Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in a tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts for some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @ 12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better endurance at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I figure the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it was enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple, I don't know. 650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic endurance, the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for fighter vs fighter, even in a tail chase. R / John Back to top Tony Volk Guest Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:58 pm    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. I'm curious as to why they wouldn't be good in a tail chase given that there wouldn't be any noticeable change in the RWR until the very end? Certainly, they ought to have more energy/range than most other AAM. And for the record, other than their weight/drag, why are they called Buffaloes? I've heard that someone thought they looked like a Buffalo coming off the rail, but either that person has never seen a buffalo, or the vision requirements were SERIOUSLY relaxed for that individual. While I've got a John (I can never remember which John flew the -14), how did it perform a-a against the Eagle in BFM? I've heard some sources say the Eagle is nigh-invincible in the high speed dogfight (even compared to the Viper), while other sources (Tomcat drivers) tell me that a -14A is a good match, while a -14B/D is just cruel to the Eagle driver. Any comments? I know that this is an awful newbie question, and I know that air under the ass counts for most, but I'm curious to get a general opinion about how close they are (actually, how close are all the teen series?). Cheers, Tony Quote: 650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic endurance, the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for fighter vs fighter, even in a tail chase. R / John Back to top Frijoles Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. IIRC, the Eagles were flying with 3 tanks (retained) and (obviously) a combat load. "John Carrier" <jxc2 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote Quote: "Guy Alcala" <g_alcala (AT) junkpostoffice (DOT) pacbell.net> wrote in message news:41BF8C9E.6A387D67 (AT) junkpostoffice (DOT) pacbell.net... John Carrier wrote: According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race. F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to fight in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS. My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout to Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in a tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts for some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @ 12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better endurance at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I figure the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it was enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple, I don't know. 650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic endurance, the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for fighter vs fighter, even in a tail chase. R / John Back to top Guy Alcala Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. Frijoles wrote: Quote: IIRC, the Eagles were flying with 3 tanks (retained) and (obviously) a combat load. The tanks were punched, and 650 KCAS or so was apparently enough to get them in the envelope. Although ISTR being told that the F-15 has never gotten within a mile of its 800KCAS limit in level flight. 730KCAS or so on the deck is floating around in my memory, but don't put a lot of weight on that in this case. Guy Back to top jcdata@***gmail.com Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. Guy, What engine trim was set for the F15? I recall typically they are usually at 96%. ~j Back to top Pechs1 Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. Tony-<< how did it perform a-a against the Eagle in BFM? I've heard some sources say the Eagle is nigh-invincible in the high speed dogfight (even compared to the Viper), while other sources (Tomcat drivers) tell me that a -14A is a good match, while a -14B/D is just cruel to the Eagle driver. Any comments? Quote: BR> I say-Since the F-15 had a hard wing, no manuvering devices, high altitude and high speed, it was very good but if you got it lower and slower, in the 10,000 feet arena and 200 or so kts, you could beat it up pretty good. The big problem with the F-14 was aft wing sweep at high altitudes, even at slowish speeds..which made it very piggy. P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer Back to top Ed Rasimus Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: F-14 vs. F-15 accel. On 16 Dec 2004 14:02:18 GMT, [email]pechs1 (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (Pechs1) wrote: Quote: Tony-<< how did it perform a-a against the Eagle in BFM? I've heard some sources say the Eagle is nigh-invincible in the high speed dogfight (even compared to the Viper), while other sources (Tomcat drivers) tell me that a -14A is a good match, while a -14B/D is just cruel to the Eagle driver. Any comments? BR> I say-Since the F-15 had a hard wing, no manuvering devices, high altitude and high speed, it was very good but if you got it lower and slower, in the 10,000 feet arena and 200 or so kts, you could beat it up pretty good. The big problem with the F-14 was aft wing sweep at high altitudes, even at slowish speeds..which made it very piggy. P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer I've had the opportunity to fight (briefly before being morted) an F-14A in a Phantom--low-level ingress against CV America in the Med. Watched him run the intercept, commented to the GIB that he was definitely going to overshoot BIG TIME, then said "aww shit" as the wings came out and he did the bat-turn. Also got a number of chances to fly against F-15A models in the AT-38. No chance at all 1-v-1, but could do a good job against low-experience Eagle drivers in 2-v-2, particularly with a good Loose Deuce knowledgeable wingman. 1-v-1, however, it made no difference whether the setup was dead-6 ahead or dead-6 astern, shoulder to shoulder same or opposite direction, the Eagle simply rolled into shooting position effortlessly. But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises. Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge with the -54. The Eagle did very well below 10,000 feet. That big wing and those virtually stall-free engines made it almost impossible to ham-fist the airplane out of energy. But, you throw in the "200 or so knots" and there is no doubt of two things: 1.) the Tom would do very well in that regime, and 2.) no fighter pilot of the period should ever by flying combat at that speed! When I had the chance to ride along in an F-4 off of Forrestal, my impression was that the Navy guys spent most of the flight orbitting at "max conserve" to fit into the cycle, then they would run some 1-v-1 proficiency engagements with any fuel left before returning to the boat. These setups started at low speed and immediately degenerated into some variant of a low-speed rolling scissors. Those guys were VERY good in that regime. I told them when I left that if they ever saw me on an exercise in a brown/green Phantom, that it would be .9 M or faster and I wouldn't be turning with them. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org Back to top Tony Volk Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Memorable victories Quote: But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises. Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge with the -54. I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more, but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining bragging Back to top Red Rider Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Memorable victories "Tony Volk" <avolkremovethisandthis (AT) planetavp (DOT) com> wrote SNIP---------- Quote: I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more, but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony SNIP----------- I wish I could remember the name of the guy driving the RA-5C (-10) that shamelessly whipped a couple of F-4's one day, like he owned them. I can't even remember all the details but it was something along the line of the Vigi was at a low weight, optimum altitude, 40,000 feet or so, and he got the drop on them. Evidently the two F-4's couldn't believe it was happening to them and instead of splitting and catching the Vigi between them, they both tried to turn and burn with him. He wore them out and wisely called it off, about the time, the two F-4 drivers came to their senses and started working to get the advantage. One of my most memorable days, was on a routine flight from Key West, was discovering a pair of Cuban MiG-21 out in front of us. Of course we weren't allowed to shoot them down. But being out in the middle of nowhere, we played for a little while and discovered that even though one of the pilots was damn good, they weren't better than our F-8's. This was before Vietnam and we still had a lot to learn about the 21. My CO told us on the quiet, that Intell thought one of the pilots was a Soviet Major, and the other was a Cuban Major and that both were instructors. That was supposed to be the only reason they were willing to play tag. Then there are the days I should forget, like the time I put out all the lights in Southern California, or getting caught with the Admirals daughter in the phone booth at the Trader Vics. NAW, I wouldn't trade those memories for a new puppy for Christmas. Red Back to top Ed Rasimus Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Memorable victories On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:00:04 -0500, "Tony Volk" <avolkremovethisandthis (AT) planetavp (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more, but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining bragging Well, pshaw. But, since you asked. Maybe the most fun I ever had in a Talon vs Eagle engagement was a 2-v-2 out of Holloman. My wingman was Capt. Mike Scott (son of Lt Gen Winfield Scott who was Supt of AFA at that time and previously an F-105 driver.) Mike had been an F-4 type before coming to AT-38s and was definitely not a "my dad is so-and-so" kind of guy. He was very good at the job. The Eagles were led by the Western US F-15 demo pilot--the hand-picked whiz-kid to go to airshows and fly the low level demos of the Eagle everywhere W. of the Mississippi. At the time, the 49th wing at Holloman had a wing commander who was much more administrator than fighter pilot. His greatest concern was that an accident, particularly with his relatively low-experience wing full of young drivers, would ruin his opportunity to make general. He mandated that all dissimilar engagements flown by his guys would be with "continuous mutual support--radar, radio, visual and formation!" This meant that his guys would be effectively tied to the 1950/60's era fighting wing tactics that he himself had been trained in. On the other side of the airdrome, the AT-38 instructor cadre had much higher average fighter time and no such restrictions. ROE were visual engagments, 5 thousand foot altitude block separation until the merge, and rear-aspect weapons. With dual UHF capability, the Eagles had the advantage of radar, GCI support and monitoring of the Talon's frequency. The AT-38s had small size. Setup was 20 mile separation and head-on into the merge. Cleared to leave the block on visual. I chose to take the block above the Eagles and rather than a traditional spread, I told Mike to stack as close to directly above me as possible (4000 feet higher). "Fight's on." As I expected, the Eagles and GCI picked us up and provided vectors, but the couldn't discriminate the two aircraft and so couldn't allocate weapons on the pair. We could see the huge airplanes long before they saw us and consequently called visual on the pair who immediately entered a defensive turn, dragging the Eagle wingman into low-aspect trail. I engaged the trailer for high-angle guns, Mike offset laterally and maintained his altitude advantage. With a top planform on the turning wingman, I filmed the gun shot then zoomed off opposite the defensive turn. Mike dropped to press and stop the reversal, I continued counter-fight and high-angled the leader on the opposite side of the circle. Mike got his shot on the wingman and I called the egress. We split, got 10K feet of separation and knocked it off. Second, third, fourth engagements repeated. Finally during the fourth engagement I lamented on the radio that I was out of film on my second magazine and wished I'd brought more. The poor Eagle driver accused us on debrief of "lacking flight discipline" because we were split-plane throughout and eating their lunch unfairly. I simply pointed out that we were always in "detached mutual support" and he might want to check out the latest tactics manuals. But, in fairness, had the Eagles been able under the ROE use their Limas, face-shot WVR with AIM-7Fs and been allowed the same freedom of maneuver, we would have been very small threat. Still in all, a great fun day. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org Back to top C.D.Damron Guest Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Memorable victories "Red Rider" <triangle (AT) apexmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." I need to get my dad on here. He's got a great story about his Prowler getting jumped by Tomcat at Red Flag. 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