AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Engine Preheater - any good? Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Owning Airplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Bob Chilcoat Guest Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:05 pm    Post subject: Engine Preheater - any good? My partners and I are considering this preheater: http://aerothermheaters.com/ It's advantages seem to be that, unlike Tannis and other sump heaters, it's not permanently attached to the airplane, and therefore doesn't require an STC or W&B recalculation (unless you forget it and leave it attached . Anyone ever use something like this? -- Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways) Back to top Carl Orton Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? I made up my own for $40. Got a ceramic heater from WallyMart for $19 (6" x 6" x 7.5"), then went to Home Depot and got aluminum flex duct (not the aluminum covered plastic - I'm talking flex/corrugated aluminum), a duct collar, and a flange. Bend the flange to the shape of the heater, mount the duct collar in the 4" pre-drilled hole in the flange (home depot sells these right next to the duct collars). Then fasten it to the front of the heater. I cheaped out and used aluminum duct tape until I got it positioned right. Set up with a timer and you've got 1500 watts of heat. I place the free end of the duct in the nose wheel opening in my C172. After 3 hours, it's ready to go. "Bob Chilcoat" <viewptmd (AT) erolsREMOVE (DOT) com> wrote Quote: My partners and I are considering this preheater: http://aerothermheaters.com/ It's advantages seem to be that, unlike Tannis and other sump heaters, it's not permanently attached to the airplane, and therefore doesn't require an STC or W&B recalculation (unless you forget it and leave it attached . Anyone ever use something like this? -- Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways) Back to top Jim Rosinski Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Bob Chilcoat wrote: Quote: My partners and I are considering this preheater: http://aerothermheaters.com/ It's advantages seem to be that, unlike Tannis and other sump heaters, it's not permanently attached to the airplane, and therefore doesn't require an STC or W&B recalculation (unless you forget it and leave it attached . Anyone ever use something like this? Here's what I did: http://www.burningserver.net/rosinski/airplane/pc280486.640x480.jpg Cheap 1500 Watt heater from Kmart fits neatly between nosewheel and lower cowl. Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me as another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd expect something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then multiply by 10 to get the actual price because it's for an airplane. Jim Rosinski Back to top Matt Barrow Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:52 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? "Jim Rosinski" <jmrosinski (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Here's what I did: http://www.burningserver.net/rosinski/airplane/pc280486.640x480.jpg Cheap 1500 Watt heater from Kmart fits neatly between nosewheel and lower cowl. Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me as another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd expect something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then multiply by 10 to get the actual price because it's for an airplane. What do you think it costs to build 100 units vs. 20000 units that K-mart sells? -- Matt --------------------- Matthew W. Barrow Site-Fill Homes, LLC. Montrose, CO Back to top Jim Rosinski Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Matt Barrow wrote: Quote: Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me as another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd expect something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then multiply by 10 to get the actual price because it's for an airplane. What do you think it costs to build 100 units vs. 20000 units that K-mart sells? This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs. Sort of like the saying: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you". Jim Rosinski Back to top Jim Rosinski Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Matt Barrow wrote: Quote: Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me as another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd expect something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then multiply by 10 to get the actual price because it's for an airplane. What do you think it costs to build 100 units vs. 20000 units that K-mart sells? This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always fully explain the perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs. Sort of like the saying: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you". Jim Rosinski Back to top Matt Barrow Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? "Jim Rosinski" <jmrosinski (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Matt Barrow wrote: This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs. Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question? Quote: Sort of like the saying: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you". The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing. And I know for a fact that they are trying to get me. But they won't get me; I'm on a mission from god. -- Matt --------------------- Matthew W. Barrow Site-Fill Homes, LLC. Montrose, CO Back to top Rosspilot Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Quote: . After 3 hours, it's ready to go. 3 Hours? Way too long. I still use (and love) my trusty Red Dragon. Last Friday it was 6 degrees when I had to do a shoot . . . preheated for an hour and ready to go . . . warm as toast. www.Rosspilot.com Back to top Jim Rosinski Guest Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Matt Barrow wrote: Quote: This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs. Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question? The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to fit in the cowling of an airplane. The price is $299. If I'm right and the profit margin is around 1000% per unit, this strikes me as excessive. And THREE HOURS to preheat?!?! The Kmart preheating solution I mentioned in an earlier article can do it in two or less. Quote: The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing. So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You might want to rethink, or rephrase, those words. Jim Rosinski Back to top Matt Barrow Guest Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? "Jim Rosinski" <jmrosinski (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Matt Barrow wrote: This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs. Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question? The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to fit in the cowling of an airplane. The price is $299. If I'm right and the profit margin is around 1000% per unit, this strikes me as excessive. THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why don't you? Quote: And THREE HOURS to preheat?!?! The Kmart preheating solution I mentioned in an earlier article can do it in two or less. See previous two sentences. Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!! Quote: The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing. So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You might want to rethink, or rephrase, those words. You might want to think of the word "voluntary". Back to top Matt Barrow Guest Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? "Rosspilot" <rosspilot (AT) aol (DOT) comnospam> wrote Quote: . After 3 hours, it's ready to go. 3 Hours? Way too long. I still use (and love) my trusty Red Dragon. Last Friday it was 6 degrees when I had to do a shoot . . . preheated for an hour and ready to go . . . warm as toast. I believe such products (this thing, Reiff, Tanis) are for over-night warm ups, not spur of the moment. -- Matt --------------------- Matthew W. Barrow Site-Fill Homes, LLC. Montrose, CO Back to top Jon Guest Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Bob, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to install a preheat system on the airframe.. Our shop has installed 15 or 20 in the last few years with 7 or so being Reiff's. We have never had one go bad (Except the one we installed wrong!). For the $100 or so dollar more it cost you get a great product without ANY hassle. Just plug it in. I have read the notes about the Wal-mart and Kmart heaters but what do you do one the ramp away from home? With the wind up above 20kts or so I would like it's hard to use something you have to setup each time you wish to use it. If you choose to have something installed let your shop order it they can make a little money and you pay the same price. It should take about 2.5 hours to install and do the paper work. Jon Back to top George Patterson Guest Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Jim Rosinski wrote: Quote: The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to fit in the cowling of an airplane. If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater you can buy at a retail outlet. A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for home use measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not the temperature of the air flowing through the unit. This is, of course, a function of the location of the thermostat, but someone had to do some design work here. Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting together a few off-the-shelf parts. George Patterson He who marries for money earns every penny of it. Back to top Jim Rosinski Guest Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? Matt Barrow wrote: Quote: THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why don't you? Because I don't want to. Quote: Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!! Rube Goldberg's what? Quote: The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing. So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You might want to rethink, or rephrase, those words. You might want to think of the word "voluntary". : What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said? Jim Rosinski Back to top Jim Rosinski Guest Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Preheater - any good? George Patterson wrote: Quote: If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater you can buy at a retail outlet. It puts out 500, 1000, or 1500 watts, which oddly enough are the same power settings as on my Kmart "preheater". A weaker fan will result in a higher temperature, a stronger fan a lower one. The temperature itself is meaningless to someone trying to figure out how well this thing is going to work. Marketing hype. Quote: A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for home use measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not the temperature of the air flowing through the unit. This is, of course, a function of the location of the thermostat, but someone had to do some design work here. Not convincing. The temperature of the air is irrelevant. What matters is the temperature of the engine and the oil. Quote: Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting together a few off-the-shelf parts. Maybe you're not cynical enough. Then again, maybe I'm too cynical. Considering the other options available though (e.g. my cheap-ass solution, or Red Dragon), $299 is a chunk of change for something like this. : Jim Rosinski Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Owning Airplanes All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.