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Kevin Dunlevy
Guest
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 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: Engine Out Practice |
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I took a check ride today with an instructor at a new FBO. My regular FBO
is in bankruptcy and has been milking every dime out of rental and fuel
rates to raise cash. (The bankruptcy trustee assured me the planes that are
left are being maintained, and the instructors are still flying them, so I'm
not concerned about the airworthiness of the planes.) The CFI told me to
enter the pattern 500 feet high, and wouldn't give me a hint why. Then on
the down wind he did the fairly common trick of pulling the throttle out on
the M model C-172. The interesting thing was the extra 500 feet. It is
easy for me to land without power from abeam the touch down point at pattern
altitude, but because of the extra 500 feet, I had to go further downwind to
make it down to the runway. He told me I should have circled down instead of
continuing downwind to loose altitude.
The other valuable tip he gave me was not to put the flaps down until in or
near ground effect, because the flaps in ground effect could generate some
extra lift to clear an object and extend the range of the plane in ground
effect to prevent landing short of the runway. Kevin Dunlevy
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houstondan
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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i'm just barely a pilot (still less than 100 hours) but i'm having
trouble with the advice you got.
was there a "trim for 65" in there somewhere? i don't always do it but
i was always taught to do it.
i don't understand the circling thing. he really wants you doing a
circle above the pattern?? i usually run downwind a little long and
make sure i hit final a little high then i've got that extra energy in
the bank and i can slip if off (you know, cross-control it sideways as
needed to kill altitude without getting more speed) as needed.
i don't think flaps will increase the true gliding distance. they'll
lower the stall speed and add drag. generally, i wouldn't be foolin
with flaps that late in the game anyway. in a 172 those flaps will lift
the plane pretty good and you've got a new altitude/speed equation to
figure out. unless it's shorts over an obsticle why add to the
confusion?
probably i just don't understand.
dan
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pullinggs
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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Kevin,
As the old cliche goes... there is more than one way to skin a cat (or
land an airplane). Your method worked without scaring anybody, right?
Therefore, it couldn't have been all that bad.
All things equal, I'd probably have rolled in at 45 degrees and made a
cirlce as I slowed to Vbg. That bank angle is pretty close to the best
trade off between sink and turn rate for most light planes, (yielding
an 800 foot loss per turn for me in the Super D; don't remember what it
took in the C172). Assuming a higher-than-Vbg speed on downwind when
this excercise began, that would have put me back on downwind at Vbg
and just a touch lower than normal for the pattern. From there, it
would all start looking normal again right away.
Power off? Keep the flaps stowed until you absolutely *need* them.
(Of course, one never really needs them. I never use flaps for
landing.... since the airplane doesn't have flaps. :-)
-Dave Russell
8KCAB / N2S-3
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BTIZ
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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if you are the only one in the pattern.. circling might be a good idea to
stay within glide if you screw up your estimate on downwind.. especially on
a windy day.. follows along the line of the Commercial PTS.
If you are not alone at the airport... circling back on someone behind you
on downwind would not be a good idea.. talk on the radio and extend..
as for the flaps.. don't think that makes to much sense.. flaps do not
necessarily add to the lift only in ground effect.. and remember that for
most aircraft, ground effect only comes into play when within 1/2 wingspan
of the ground.. and much more than 10-20 degree flaps on most light GA
aircraft (C172), the extra flap is more drag than lift..
Always hold deployment of flaps until glide distance to the runway is
assured.. unless the POH dictates otherwise for best glide configuration..
same as the gear on a retract.. create as little drag as possible.
BT
"Kevin Dunlevy" <kevinnadaspamdunlevyatcomcastdotnet> wrote
| Quote: | I took a check ride today with an instructor at a new FBO. My regular FBO
is in bankruptcy and has been milking every dime out of rental and fuel
rates to raise cash. (The bankruptcy trustee assured me the planes that
are
left are being maintained, and the instructors are still flying them, so
I'm
not concerned about the airworthiness of the planes.) The CFI told me to
enter the pattern 500 feet high, and wouldn't give me a hint why. Then on
the down wind he did the fairly common trick of pulling the throttle out
on
the M model C-172. The interesting thing was the extra 500 feet. It is
easy for me to land without power from abeam the touch down point at
pattern
altitude, but because of the extra 500 feet, I had to go further downwind
to
make it down to the runway. He told me I should have circled down instead
of
continuing downwind to loose altitude.
The other valuable tip he gave me was not to put the flaps down until in
or
near ground effect, because the flaps in ground effect could generate some
extra lift to clear an object and extend the range of the plane in ground
effect to prevent landing short of the runway. Kevin Dunlevy
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Dave S
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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Let me translate...
A "new" instructor wants to try and show him a "better" way that doesn't
really build well on his previously acquired experience...
Starting 500 ft high resulted in starting from a different key position,
or whatever you choose to refer to as the entry point for this maneuver...
Doing it in a traffic pattern could have been dicey starting the high
approach and THEN doing a circling/overhead approach maneuver..
especially if it was busy... if your average pilot is looking IN the
traditional pattern, guess how surprised he will be when the overhead
approach traffic mixes it up with him. The instructor should have
discussed and briefed this sort of thing on the ground before doing it
in the air (under the general heading of emergency procedures.. and
asked what the student would do with "x" situation)
In an emergency you will do well if you do what you know/practice.. I'm
not sure this exercise really meshed with that. It DID give the original
poster some extra issues to deal with.
As for flaps.. flaps WILL steepen your descent.. thats their purpose..
so flaps should be added only when making it to the field is assured.
Seems awfully silly to come in steeper with flaps, landing way short...
if you are coming in a best glide in a light prop plane, in a true power
out situation you wont have a whole lot of extra airspeed for
in-ground-effect maneuvers.. maybe one bunny hop.. Personally I'd leave
the flaps alone until I know the runway is MINE.
my 2 cents says that the lesson this student got conflicted with much of
his previously sensible training.
Dave
houstondan wrote:
| Quote: | i'm just barely a pilot (still less than 100 hours) but i'm having
trouble with the advice you got.
was there a "trim for 65" in there somewhere? i don't always do it but
i was always taught to do it.
i don't understand the circling thing. he really wants you doing a
circle above the pattern?? i usually run downwind a little long and
make sure i hit final a little high then i've got that extra energy in
the bank and i can slip if off (you know, cross-control it sideways as
needed to kill altitude without getting more speed) as needed.
i don't think flaps will increase the true gliding distance. they'll
lower the stall speed and add drag. generally, i wouldn't be foolin
with flaps that late in the game anyway. in a 172 those flaps will lift
the plane pretty good and you've got a new altitude/speed equation to
figure out. unless it's shorts over an obsticle why add to the
confusion?
probably i just don't understand.
dan
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Frank Ch. Eigler
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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"Kevin Dunlevy" <kevinnadaspamdunlevyatcomcastdotnet> writes:
| Quote: | [...] The other valuable tip he gave me was not to put the flaps
down until in or near ground effect, because the flaps in ground
effect could generate some extra lift to clear an object [...]
|
Consider how low one has to be to be "in or near ground effect" in a
common light plane: probably ten feet or less. Would you really want
to be futzing with flap controls when you're so close to the ground?
You are now burning up airspeed to maintain altitude. Assuming you're
around best-glide speed already, I bet your normal flare is measured
in seconds, maybe ten at most. Even if your instructor's theory about
flap actuation at this point were true, how much could is possibly do?
Extend the flare another few seconds? How far do you go in a few
seconds?
Just do some rough calculations to see if the theory makes any sense.
- FChE
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houstondan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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y'all are confirming some of what i was thinking. doing an engine out
over the airport with a extra 500 feet is just like a bonus to me,
that's something like a minute of motor-turning energy i've got in the
bank for openers. why squander that first thing?? i'd save it in case
i screw-up something else later (hah! as if that could actually happen)
aalthough i trained in the 172 and was told to add 10deg of flap
downwind, another 10 base and yet another 10 for final i'm about
talking myself out of flaps altogether unless it's shorts or softs or
something. maybe 10deg but why bother. most of my recent work has been
with a citabria gcbc where the flaps are more of a concept than
anything. none of the other citabrias even have flaps and it's kind of
a "why bother?" thing. yes, if i just have to go super slow then it'll
buy me a slightly later stall.
mostly, in a cessna, the flaps, beyond 10deg are just drag and they
really make cross wind work harder. of course if you're just way too
hot and way too high and it's got 40deg then you can do full flaps and
kinda parachute it in. without throttle, it's hard to get a dive faster
than 70ish.
or so it seems to me based upon my limited experience.
dan
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Borislav Deianov
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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Come on guys, let's not bash Kevin's check instructor too much.
Kevin Dunlevy <kevinnadaspamdunlevyatcomcastdotnet> wrote:
| Quote: | the M model C-172. The interesting thing was the extra 500 feet. It is
easy for me to land without power from abeam the touch down point at pattern
altitude, but because of the extra 500 feet, I had to go further downwind to
make it down to the runway. He told me I should have circled down instead of
continuing downwind to loose altitude.
|
Circling over the pattern to get to pattern altitude can be a good
idea. It allows you to start the downwind leg from a known position
and altitude and execute a pattern you've practiced before. The more
similar the emergency pattern is to your normal pattern, the higher
the chance you won't screw it up. That's also why it helps to do all
landings power-off.
Circling over the landing field also allows you get a closer look at
it before you commit to landing there. There may be a fence in that
field you can't see from 1500' but you can from 1000'. Figure 8s might
be even better in this case to allow you to keep the runway in sight
while descending.
| Quote: | The other valuable tip he gave me was not to put the flaps down
until in or near ground effect, because the flaps in ground effect
could generate some extra lift to clear an object and extend the
range of the plane in ground effect to prevent landing short of the
runway. Kevin Dunlevy
|
Most replies (except Frank's) missed the point here. Suppose you
misjudge the downwind and extend too much. Once on final, you see
you'll come short. Naturally, you don't add flaps since you don't have
the landing field made. Even so, you end up flaring just a few feet
short of the pavement. THEN adding flaps makes sense, to lower your
stall speed and therefore allow you a few extra feet of float. That
may be all that's needed to make it over a fence or ditch.
Landing with flaps (when you have them) also allows you to touch down
at the slowest possible speed. This is normally a good practice
(reduce wear on the tires) but very important when landing in a rough
or unknown field. That extra 5 knots may well flip you on your back
when you hit the ditch you didn't see because you didn't circle over
the field to descent ;-)
I think in both cases Kevin got some extra tools to put in his
toolbox. The more you have, the better - you never know when you're
going to need them.
Boris
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houstondan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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nope...that adding flaps at the last minute while "in ground effect
with no engine" stuff is just flat too dangerous for a student. i've
called around just to make sure here. when we are doing multiple
landings per pass(wheel left/3-point/wheel right) the drill is to give
it a shot of power before nosing up out of ground effect. if he gets
that thing back up out of ground effect ...just a little too high, it's
a tail-low stall with no possible recovery. even in practice it's
probably too late to get the power back in.
and again, flaps will not extend to touchdown point.
dan
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Jay Somerset
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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On 14 Mar 2005 14:38:09 -0800, "houstondan" <djones9089 (AT) houston (DOT) rr.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | nope...that adding flaps at the last minute while "in ground effect
with no engine" stuff is just flat too dangerous for a student. i've
called around just to make sure here. when we are doing multiple
landings per pass(wheel left/3-point/wheel right) the drill is to give
it a shot of power before nosing up out of ground effect. if he gets
that thing back up out of ground effect ...just a little too high, it's
a tail-low stall with no possible recovery. even in practice it's
probably too late to get the power back in.
and again, flaps will not extend to touchdown point.
dan
|
Flaps will hurt any extended glide, but can provide a momentary zoom
capability over a fence or a ditch, but you then may have to settle for a
very hard landing. It's a choice of the lesser of two evils.
There is no free lunch here; if you need the flaps at the last second to
give yourself a few feet more altitude, you will pay for it with drastically
reduced airspeed, and a potential stall several feet above the ground. At
this point, you're going to damage something -- use of the flaps this way
just changes the parts of the plane that get mangled, but a stall from 5-6
feet above ground is probably better than hitting a fence head on, catching
the wheels in a fence, or putting the wheels into a ditch.
--
Jay.
(remove dashes for legal email address)
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Borislav Deianov
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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houstondan <djones9089 (AT) houston (DOT) rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: | y'all are confirming some of what i was thinking. doing an engine
out over the airport with a extra 500 feet is just like a bonus to
me, that's something like a minute of motor-turning energy i've got
in the bank for openers. why squander that first thing?? i'd save it
in case i screw-up something else later (hah! as if that could
actually happen)
|
Not sure how you plan on saving it, but consider this: you'd be
throwing energy away faster by moving away from the airport. Example:
you are at 1500' over the airport. If you circle to lose 500', you'd
be still at 1000' over the minimum altitude required to make it back
(0' since you are still over the airport). In other words, you'd have
1000'-worth of excess energy. If, instead, you glide away from the
airport while descending 500', you'd also be at 1000' but now need at
least 500' to make it back. This means only 500' of excess energy. You
just "squandered" the other 500' by moving away from the airport.
| Quote: | aalthough i trained in the 172 and was told to add 10deg of flap
downwind, another 10 base and yet another 10 for final i'm about
talking myself out of flaps altogether unless it's shorts or softs or
something. maybe 10deg but why bother. most of my recent work has been
with a citabria gcbc where the flaps are more of a concept than
anything. none of the other citabrias even have flaps and it's kind of
a "why bother?" thing. yes, if i just have to go super slow then it'll
buy me a slightly later stall.
|
Why bother? How long and how high is your runway, Dan? If you only fly
at sea level and 3000'+ runways (and don't pay to replace worn tires),
then why bother, indeed. You better stay in the pattern, though.
Otherwise, if your engine quits a few miles away from home and you
have to put it in a field, chances are it's going to be both short
*and* soft.
| Quote: | mostly, in a cessna, the flaps, beyond 10deg are just drag and they
really make cross wind work harder. of course if you're just way too
hot and way too high and it's got 40deg then you can do full flaps and
kinda parachute it in. without throttle, it's hard to get a dive faster
than 70ish.
|
Eh? Push that nose over and it'll go way faster than that. Which is
another useful tool for losing altitude but that's a topic for another
thread.
Wishes,
Boris
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ShawnD2112
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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Kevin,
As with most things in aviation, if you talk to 5 pilots you'll come away
with 6 opinions and three new questions.
I agree with Dave. Without your instructor telling you what he was going to
do and just expecting you to figure it out yourself, I'm not sure how much
you learned or how much it confused you.
As for extending your downwind or circling off the extra height, unless I'm
REALLY high, I don't like turning the nose away from the field in that kind
of situation. The first thing I might have done was to trim for best glide
speed and assess my height. If I'm high enough to make the airport, I'd
immediately point the airplane at the runway. If I don't think I can make
the airport, I'd look around for a road or field I could make that was
aligned roughly into wind and point the nose straight at it. Right.
Correct speed, heading in the right direction in gross terms. Time to sort
out my glide and final approach positioning. Once I've got the nose on the
field, I don't like taking it off, as I said before. I personally prefer
sideslipping off the height or doing S-turns so I never have my back to the
field (might lose it in the farm country around here). Keeping my eye on
the landing field means it's location is one less thing I have to worry
about. Once I'm on it, I don't take my eye off it because everything is now
measured in relation to it. But that's personal preference and is to be
taken with the typical usenet grain of salt.
Seems like you did fine in the circumstances but, when the engine's out, I
would caution against increasing your distance from a safe landing field
until you've got a lot more experience. Remember, when the engine quits,
the normal pattern is out the window (at least in my book it is). I'd
rather explain to the FBO owner why I broke the pattern to land than explain
to him why I broke his airplane to maintain the pattern.
In any case, have fun and learn as much as you can from these things.
Cheers,
Shawn
"Kevin Dunlevy" <kevinnadaspamdunlevyatcomcastdotnet> wrote
| Quote: | I took a check ride today with an instructor at a new FBO. My regular FBO
is in bankruptcy and has been milking every dime out of rental and fuel
rates to raise cash. (The bankruptcy trustee assured me the planes that
are
left are being maintained, and the instructors are still flying them, so
I'm
not concerned about the airworthiness of the planes.) The CFI told me to
enter the pattern 500 feet high, and wouldn't give me a hint why. Then on
the down wind he did the fairly common trick of pulling the throttle out
on
the M model C-172. The interesting thing was the extra 500 feet. It is
easy for me to land without power from abeam the touch down point at
pattern
altitude, but because of the extra 500 feet, I had to go further downwind
to
make it down to the runway. He told me I should have circled down instead
of
continuing downwind to loose altitude.
The other valuable tip he gave me was not to put the flaps down until in
or
near ground effect, because the flaps in ground effect could generate some
extra lift to clear an object and extend the range of the plane in ground
effect to prevent landing short of the runway. Kevin Dunlevy
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Robert M. Gary
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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I like to take students over the airport at 4,000 feet or so when
they're under the hood, then pull off the power and have them take off
the hood. You'd be surprised how many pilots (rated and students)
cannot land on a runway after losing an engine 4,000 feet over the
airport. Everyone seems to have focused on the engine out on downwind
abeam thing.
-Robert
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Highflyer
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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"ShawnD2112" <wylie2112 (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk> wrote
| Quote: | Kevin,
As for extending your downwind or circling off the extra height, unless
I'm REALLY high, I don't like turning the nose away from the field in that
kind of situation. The first thing I might have done was to trim for best
glide speed and assess my height. If I'm high enough to make the airport,
I'd immediately point the airplane at the runway. If I don't think I can
make the airport, I'd look around for a road or field I could make that
was aligned roughly into wind and point the nose straight at it. Right.
Correct speed, heading in the right direction in gross terms. Time to
sort out my glide and final approach positioning. Once I've got the nose
on the field, I don't like taking it off, as I said before. I personally
prefer sideslipping off the height or doing S-turns so I never have my
back to the field (might lose it in the farm country around here).
Keeping my eye on the landing field means it's location is one less thing
I have to worry about. Once I'm on it, I don't take my eye off it because
everything is now measured in relation to it. But that's personal
preference and is to be taken with the typical usenet grain of salt.
Seems like you did fine in the circumstances but, when the engine's out, I
would caution against increasing your distance from a safe landing field
until you've got a lot more experience. Remember, when the engine quits,
the normal pattern is out the window (at least in my book it is). I'd
rather explain to the FBO owner why I broke the pattern to land than
explain to him why I broke his airplane to maintain the pattern.
In any case, have fun and learn as much as you can from these things.
Cheers,
Shawn
|
I strongly disagree with Shawn! :-)
Pinckneyville is an uncontrolled field with a 4000 foot paved runway. All
of the instructors come over here from their towered fields for their
"emergency" landing practice. I sit in front of the hangar in my
comfortable chair and watch them do everything wrong. The usualy tendency
is to aim straight for the end of the runway when they lose their power.
Then I get to watch them burn up the entire 4000 feet trying to get close to
the ground. They finally put the power back in as they pass over the upwind
set of numbers and fly off wondering just what the heck happened!
Here is the way I always do an "no power emergency" landing.
1. Establish best glide.
2. Determine where you wish to touch down on the ground and the direction
of travel at touchdown.
3. Aim to be going past you touchdown point so that it comes about 45
degrees under your left wing when you hit your normal pattern altitude above
the ground.
Note: If you have enough altitude to make a full 360 and get there with a
bit to spare, make a 360. If not, do NOT make a 360. You have to turn away
from your point or you can't turn. Make a bend away and aim back at your
point. Try to be just a little bit high. When you get close and still just
a little bit high, slip a bit. Do not use flaps at this point.
4. When you cross your selected touchdown point you are at your "key"
position on "downwind." From there it is a normal power off landing.
Proceed accordingly. Land like you ALWAYS do, power off.
The more you keep familiar in any emergency the less likely you are to do
something grossly wrong and kill yourself. If you can keep it ALL
familiar, it is all familiar and there is no problem at all! :-)
Example: Door pops open on takeoff. You ask yourself ONE important
question. "Is the airplane still flying and controllable?" If it is
continue a NORMAL circuit and land, unless you or your passenger can easily
secure the door in flight. Do not do anything wierd or different from what
you would normally do in a circuit. In little Cessnas it is usually fairly
easy to secure the door in normal climbing flight. I can say from personal
experience that it is not possible to secure the door of a Piper Aztec when
you are solo in the airplane! However, the airplane flies quite normally
except for the loud wind noise and the tendency for your loose charts to
bail out the open door.  In spite of this really being a non event if
you just fly normally, people kill themselves regularly when a door pops
open on takeoff. The get in such a hurry to get back and land that they
roll immediately into a steep turn at low altitude and head back to land.
They generally make the turn so steep with their airspeed so low that they
stall the lower wing and the airplane attempts to enter a "spin out the
bottom" of the turn. The last thing they see is their windshield full of
ground approaching rapidly. Please don't do that.
Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )
PS: The annual rec.aviation gettogether at Pinckneyville is coming up May
20,21, and 22. Actually meet these people from the newsgroup in the flesh.
Fly at beautiful Pinckneyville and hangar fly all night. See the article in
AOPA Online for additional information.
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m pautz
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Out Practice |
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Kevin Dunlevy wrote:
| Quote: | I took a check ride today with an instructor at a new FBO. My regular FBO
is in bankruptcy and has been milking every dime out of rental and fuel
rates to raise cash. (The bankruptcy trustee assured me the planes that are
left are being maintained, and the instructors are still flying them, so I'm
not concerned about the airworthiness of the planes.) The CFI told me to
enter the pattern 500 feet high, and wouldn't give me a hint why. Then on
the down wind he did the fairly common trick of pulling the throttle out on
the M model C-172. The interesting thing was the extra 500 feet. It is
easy for me to land without power from abeam the touch down point at pattern
altitude, but because of the extra 500 feet, I had to go further downwind to
make it down to the runway. He told me I should have circled down instead of
continuing downwind to loose altitude.
The other valuable tip he gave me was not to put the flaps down until in or
near ground effect, because the flaps in ground effect could generate some
extra lift to clear an object and extend the range of the plane in ground
effect to prevent landing short of the runway. Kevin Dunlevy
|
Forget everything everyone has told you. Go to:
http://www.ssa.org/sport/wheretofly.asp
Find the nearest gliderport and take some lessons with a "real" power
off landing. You will be surprised at how much you will learn, how much
confidence you will gain, and how much fun you will have.
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