AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Emergency Descents Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviation (Students) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message BoDEAN Guest Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:14 pm    Post subject: Emergency Descents How have you been taught / perform emergency descents? I've heard different techniques and curious what others were taught Back to top bdm Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents It very much depends on the situation. The FAA seems to like turn 90 off airway, get down fast to breathable altitudes. But this assumes that the need is to get down quickly to breathable altitudes. That is not necessarily the case. If the purpose is to get down quickly, pick the configuration that produces the highest rate of descent. Most times this means flaps up, low power, high airspeed. Speed brakes/spoilers if you have them. In article <dd21ov4moq3qqe61984hgeakao2qcloaks (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>, BoDEAN <jbo (AT) not_a_valid_email_addy (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: How have you been taught / perform emergency descents? I've heard different techniques and curious what others were taught Back to top Scott Lowrey Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents "BoDEAN" <jbo (AT) not_a_valid_email_addy (DOT) com> wrote Quote: How have you been taught / perform emergency descents? I've heard different techniques and curious what others were taught That's a good question. I asked an instructor about it early on in my training and he said that they don't cover this topic for the private. It's described in the Jeppesen private pilot maneuvers manual that I have and it certainly seems to be something worth learning. My instructor did demonstrate a rapid spiraling descent as an emergency landing technique but he told me it was more of a commercial maneuver; his intent was to demonstrate a setup for an emergency landing to a field directly below. -Scott Back to top C J Campbell Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:08 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents I usually descend with full flaps at maximum flap extended speed, adding bank to increase rate of descent if necessary. If simulating a fire in one wing I do not use flaps but instead slip away from the fire. Back to top James M. Knox Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents "Scott Lowrey" <scott (AT) no (DOT) spam.net> wrote in news:gr5gb.225820$mp.141151 (AT) rwcrnsc51 (DOT) ops.asp.att.net: Quote: My instructor did demonstrate a rapid spiraling descent as an emergency landing technique but he told me it was more of a commercial maneuver; his intent was to demonstrate a setup for an emergency landing to a field directly below. Many high performance aircraft will have a technique specified in the POH. It may or may not be a "steep spiral," depending upon the aircraft. The steep spiral maneuver which is part of the commercial and CFI flight maneuvers is certainly one that works with most aircraft. Essentially it involves the private pilot "turns around a point" maneuver, with the plane in a steep bank (up to 55 degrees), with the power at idle. The airspeed is held to a reasonable number (some like to see "best glide" although that has little meaning during the maneuvers) and you can get reasonably high rates of descent while keeping positive G's on the airframe. ----------------------------------------------- James M. Knox TriSoft ph 512-385-0316 1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331 Austin, Tx 78721 [email]jknox (AT) trisoft (DOT) com[/email] ----------------------------------------------- Back to top David Megginson Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents [email]smit5h (AT) nortstar (DOT) com[/email] (bdm) writes: Quote: If the purpose is to get down quickly, pick the configuration that produces the highest rate of descent. Most times this means flaps up, low power, high airspeed. Speed brakes/spoilers if you have them. How about an idle-power spiral descent in a 45-degree bank at Vno (edge of the yellow arc)? That should bring you down under control extremely fast. No flaps down for most planes, obviously, at that speed. I might be a bit nervous trying that in a retractable since things can go out of control so fast, but it shouldn't be a problem in a simple fixed-gear plane like a 172/182, Cherokee, or Musketeer. All the best, David Back to top Guy Middleton Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents I remember being told once that for gliders, the best way to get down really quickly is to spin. I would not try it in a non-acrobatic power aircraft, however. Back to top Roger Long Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents Keep in mind that getting down fast(est) is one thing. The probability is high that a need for a fast descent will probably be accompanied by the need to deal with something else like a fire, a passenger having a heart attack, or even just finding a landing place. Some methods will get you down fast but can get you in trouble if you aren't right on top of airspeed. It may be worth trading some descent rate for a configuration in which the plane is more speed and attitude stable. I was taught, idle power, full flaps, hold airspeed at 85 knots. My ears hurt so it was pretty fast. A high time instructor showed me a method losing altitude quickly on a high, tight, 180 turn from downwind to final. Put in lots of outside rudder in the turn. I've pushed the pedal all the way to the metal in my 172 and the airspeed drop and descent rate are jaw dropping. If you just kept going around in a circle at about 30 degree bank, you would get down pretty fast. The ball parks all the way at the side of the tube but the plane feels very solid. You have to keep pushing the nose down to keep the airspeed up. You must not let the airspeed get critically low however and then relax the rudder pressure too suddenly (especially in a 150 or 152) so this probably wouldn't be the way to do it if you were using a fire extinguisher at the same time. If you keep the airspeed up, and aren't over hasty with the rudder however, the transition back to normal descent is very smooth and quick. Don't try it the first time without plenty of altitude and or a CFI. May not be healthy in less stable planes than the 172. -- Roger Long Back to top Jim Fisher Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents "BoDEAN" <jbo (AT) not_a_valid_email_addy (DOT) com> wrote Quote: How have you been taught / perform emergency descents? I've heard different techniques and curious what others were taught Full flaps, power idle, 45 degree bank and watch the VSI zoom to 2000fpm. I can't reckon that a safe descent gets much faster than that. Great fun doing this. It's the closest I've come to aerobatics in a non-aerobatic plane! -- Jim Fisher Back to top Bob Gardner Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents There is no undue stress on the airframe in spin recovery if done properly, with or without an engine up front. It is a one-G maneuver. Bob Gardner "Guy Middleton" <guy (AT) obstruction (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I remember being told once that for gliders, the best way to get down really quickly is to spin. I would not try it in a non-acrobatic power aircraft, however. Back to top Hilton Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents Jim Fisher wrote: Quote: BoDEAN wrote: How have you been taught / perform emergency descents? I've heard different techniques and curious what others were taught Full flaps, power idle, 45 degree bank and watch the VSI zoom to 2000fpm. I can't reckon that a safe descent gets much faster than that. Jim, If you were flying at 12,000' and your engine caught fire, would you be satisfied to sit in a burning plane for over 6 minutes? A spin at 6000 fpm would be a much better plan at that point. I'm guessing you got this technique from your CFI - I got the same one from mine. It's wrong, it's bad, and it might kill you. You owe it to yourself to experiment. If I were in a 172, I'd pull the power back to idle and point the nose down until I got to Vne and hold it there till it was time to start flaring. Throw in a slip and you'll be doing even better. [Can a 172 exceed Vne? ] Now, when you go train for this, stay (well) below Vne and make sure that the air is smooth etc. However, I'm sure this will be an eye-opener and you'll dump your flaps down maneuver in no time. No doubt, there will be those who say "But you'll be faster when you need to flare." Well, from 12,000 at 2000fpm takes 6 minutes versus 2 minutes at 6000 fpm. It sure won't take you 4 minutes to flare! Even from a more 'normal' altitude of 6000', the difference would be 2 minutes - that's a LONG time with flames next to your ears. Jim, go up and try it, report back. I'm sure you'll get the same results as I did. Hilton Back to top Robert M. Gary Guest Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents [email]smit5h (AT) nortstar (DOT) com[/email] (bdm) wrote in message news:<uo5gb.4452$gA1.2673 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.pas.earthlink.net>... Quote: It very much depends on the situation. The FAA seems to like turn 90 off airway, get down fast to breathable altitudes. But this assumes that the need is to get down quickly to breathable altitudes. That is not necessarily the case. If the purpose is to get down quickly, pick the configuration that produces the highest rate of descent. Most times this means flaps up, low power, high airspeed. Speed brakes/spoilers if you have them. Its covered in the commerical and CFI. Its probably not covered in the private because the bank angle is so great. It works best with full opp rudder in. You can easily peg the VSI on a 172. If you want to glide down nice and slow, keep it coordinated, if you want to get down fast, smash in full slip rudder. -Robert, CFI Back to top bdm Guest Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents Try it. Power idle, straight ahead, flaps up. Below redline. The VSI might read 2000 fpm. More likely a lot, lot more. Don't do this in a turn. Straight ahead. Take the forward pressure off gently. It really isn't any more risky than a 45 degree turn in a steep descent, since over rolling during a pull can put a lot of loads on. Aileron loads and flap loads can get real high if you screw up on the roll part and the speed goes up. In article <ZFjgb.24149$wC1.20632 (AT) bignews3 (DOT) bellsouth.net>, "Jim Fisher" <newsaddyREMOVE (AT) MEhiwaay (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: "BoDEAN" <jbo (AT) not_a_valid_email_addy (DOT) com> wrote in message news:dd21ov4moq3qqe61984hgeakao2qcloaks (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... How have you been taught / perform emergency descents? I've heard different techniques and curious what others were taught Full flaps, power idle, 45 degree bank and watch the VSI zoom to 2000fpm. I can't reckon that a safe descent gets much faster than that. Great fun doing this. It's the closest I've come to aerobatics in a non-aerobatic plane! Back to top Roger Halstead Guest Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:54 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:08:50 -0700, "C J Campbell" <christophercampbellNOSPAM (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I usually descend with full flaps at maximum flap extended speed, adding bank to increase rate of descent if necessary. If simulating a fire in one wing I do not use flaps but instead slip away from the fire. In the Bonanza and Debonair it's gear down, flaps up, power idle, speed at maximum gear down, in a steep spiral (I add slip and do steep turns at 60 degrees) which in mine gives over 2200 fpm rate of descent. Most Bonanzas come down a lot slower than they go up, basically due to speed limitations. With gear up you would be hard pressed to maintain 1000 fpm without exceeding Vne. Particularly if they have a 2-blade prop.(hard to slow up), but with gear down and a 3-blade prop, they have a descent profile like an overloaded Cherokee. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) Quote: Back to top Roger Halstead Guest Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Descents On 6 Oct 2003 16:16:02 -0700, [email]rmg1 (AT) my-deja (DOT) com[/email] (Robert M. Gary) wrote: Quote: smit5h (AT) nortstar (DOT) com (bdm) wrote in message news:<uo5gb.4452$gA1.2673 (AT) newsread3 (DOT) news.pas.earthlink.net>... It very much depends on the situation. The FAA seems to like turn 90 off airway, get down fast to breathable altitudes. But this assumes that the need is to get down quickly to breathable altitudes. That is not necessarily the case. If the purpose is to get down quickly, pick the configuration that produces the highest rate of descent. Most times this means flaps up, low power, high airspeed. Speed brakes/spoilers if you have them. Its covered in the commerical and CFI. Its probably not covered in the private because the bank angle is so great. It works best with full There is nothing excessive about angles up to 60 degrees. When I took the PPL practical test ride I had to do my steep turns at 60. <) Also, I've been given emergency descents on every biennial flight review. That's in addition to the simulated engine failure. I think the FAA did the students and pilots alike a disservice by dropping the bank angle on steep turns from 60 to 45 degrees. Quote: opp rudder in. You can easily peg the VSI on a 172. If you want to glide down nice and slow, keep it coordinated, if you want to get down fast, smash in full slip rudder. Just like the express elevator. Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member) www.rogerhalstead.com N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2) Quote: -Robert, CFI Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviation (Students) All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next Page 1 of 3   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.