AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  ELT's are a joke Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Buck Wild Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:49 pm    Post subject: ELT's are a joke I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on it, There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having the boy scouts try to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna, while the transmitter is operating continuosly draining those questionable D cells that have been in the unit for...how long? Hokey Smokes! let's get caught up with the '90's. It's crazy, flying along and having center call you to ask if you hear an elt signal while you're at FL310 over the LA basin. Yeah, we hear it, so now what? If it were a gps signal, center would know right away it's just a helicopter sitting in the hanger an hour after a firm landing. A millisecond burst would require very little power, and could encode position, aircraft type & "N" number and whatever else. The signal only needs to be sent once, and would save time, money, and lives. A hunter or hiker or pilot could add a brief text message as well, to indicate urgancy. Oh, one other thing, considering the cost of a gps & transmitter, it should be affordable to anyone, maybe the price of a 'chute or less. Why don't we all have these? -Dan Back to top Larry Pardue Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke I believe the part about not doing a search. You pretty accurately describe the new 406 Mhz personal locator beacons. http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/185236-1.html http://www.provantage.com/buy-22081414-mcmurdo-pains-wessex-electronics-fast find-plus-406-epirb-personal-location-beacon-plb-gps-shopping.htm Larry Pardue 2I n5lp.net Quote: I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on it, There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having the boy scouts try to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna, while the transmitter is operating continuosly draining those questionable D cells that have been in the unit for...how long? Hokey Smokes! let's get caught up with the '90's. It's crazy, flying along and having center call you to ask if you hear an elt signal while you're at FL310 over the LA basin. Yeah, we hear it, so now what? If it were a gps signal, center would know right away it's just a helicopter sitting in the hanger an hour after a firm landing. A millisecond burst would require very little power, and could encode position, aircraft type & "N" number and whatever else. The signal only needs to be sent once, and would save time, money, and lives. A hunter or hiker or pilot could add a brief text message as well, to indicate urgancy. Oh, one other thing, considering the cost of a gps & transmitter, it should be affordable to anyone, maybe the price of a 'chute or less. Why don't we all have these? -Dan Back to top Tony Verhulst Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke Quote: ......A millisecond burst would require very little power, and could encode position, aircraft type & "N" number and whatever else. The signal only needs to be sent once, and would save time, money, and lives. A hunter or hiker or pilot could add a brief text message as well, to indicate urgancy. Oh, one other thing, considering the cost of a gps & transmitter, it should be affordable to anyone, maybe the price of a 'chute or less. Why don't we all have these? The 1.6 GHz EPIRBs are already available: The 1.6GHz EPIRB uses the INMARSAT satellites in geostationary orbit. These satellites do not fly around the planet and appear to remain in one fixed spot over the earths surface, (the stationary part of geostationary). They are equipped with a GPS receiver so that when they are activated the alert signal, beacon ID and beacon position are transmitted. See http://www.navtec.de/english/epirb2.htm Tony V. Back to top Marc Ramsey Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke At 20:00 14 November 2003, Buck Wild wrote: Quote: I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on it, There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your exact GPS location to a satalite What you are looking for is a 406 MHz ELT. They transmit a message burst every 50 seconds, rather than emitting a continuous signal. The reason a priodic message is required is that the primary emergency receivers are on polar orbiting satellites, and there may not be one overhead at any given moment. The aircraft versions also supports broadcasting position info using an external GPS connected via an ARINC 429 bus. Quote: Why don't we all have these? Most because a TSO'd 121.5 MHz ELT costs around $200, whereas a TSO'd 406 Mhz ELT costs $5000+ (a GPS with a 429 bus will cost you a few thousand more). You can get a marine 406 MHz ELT for under $1000, but they don't have a G-switch... Marc Back to top Bob Kuykendall Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke Earlier, Buck Wild wrote: Quote: ...There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your exact GPS location to a satalite... Sorta off-topic, but sorta not: Last year, me and a couple of friends sitting around the table at Air Sailing had a big ol' discussion about that. One of the controversial ideas that came out of that was that perhaps the best predictor of accident survival was how long it took emergency crews to reach the accident site. What we figured is that glider pilots need something like the OnStar system that they put in Cadillacs and such. What we hashed out was a GPS-enabled system capable of sensing a crash impact, and further capable of determining the proximity to civilization and the nature of the surrounding terrain. With that information at hand, the box would assess the impact energy and location, and place a satellite call for a MediFlight helicopter or ambulance as appropriate. Just some into-the-box thinking. Bob K. Back to top Tony Verhulst Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke Larry Pardue wrote: Quote: I believe the part about not doing a search. You pretty accurately describe the new 406 Mhz personal locator beacons. Though much better thatn the 121.5 MHz units, I don't believe that the 406's transmit GPS coordinates like the 1.6 GHz units do - they use doppler shift instead. My understanding is that the 406 MHz units provide a 1KM resolution. Much better than the 121.5's but if you go down into a forest.... not good enough, IMHO. See http://www.navtec.de/english/elts.htm Tony V. Back to top Tony Verhulst Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:44 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke Quote: Sorta off-topic, but sorta not: Also a bit off topic but this summer (July), a club member made an "off-field landing" in a forest in an LS4-b. He was slightly injured and was trapped in the aircraft. He radiod his GPS cooordinates to a club tow plane, 20 miles away. The plane landed at the gliderport, loaded an oberver with a portable GPS and set off. Even though they had the exact position, it took several minutes to spot him though the forest canopy. They circled over the crash site and guided rescuers until help arrived. The police later credited the tow plane crew for significantly reducing the rescue time. Tony V. Back to top Marc Ramsey Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke Tony Verhulst wrote: Quote: Though much better thatn the 121.5 MHz units, I don't believe that the 406's transmit GPS coordinates like the 1.6 GHz units do - they use doppler shift instead. My understanding is that the 406 MHz units provide a 1KM resolution. Much better than the 121.5's but if you go down into a forest.... not good enough, IMHO. See http://www.navtec.de/english/elts.htm A 406 MHz ELT can transmit GPS position. I believe EPIRB was designed primarily for marine applications. The primary receivers are on geostationary satellites, which may not be very helpful if you happen to be in a canyon, or on the wrong side of a mountain... Marc Back to top Lennie the Lurker Guest Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke [email]airthugg1 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email] (Buck Wild) wrote in message news:<bdc5370d.0311141149.60bdc78c (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... Quote: the price of a 'chute or less. Why don't we all have these? -Dan A single tone modulated am transmitter can consist of very few parts. You're thinking something that can be activated after the crash has already occurred, highly unlikely all that circuitry would function after a crash. However, let us know how your development comes along. Just remember the market is too small to pay more than $50 per year to the developer. Sorry, dud, but digital encoding may be relatively simple and now small, but making complex and accurate is going to blow the hell out of development costs. Back to top ISoar Guest Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke Is a APRS (Automatic Postition Reporting System) enabled ham radio a reasonable substitute? Intro: http://nwaprs.org/downloads/WhatIsAPRS.pdf Way more info: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs.html On 14 Nov 2003 11:49:19 -0800, [email]airthugg1 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com[/email] (Buck Wild) wrote: Quote: I've said it before, though I haven't done an extensive web search on it, There's gotta be an elt available that sends one short burst with your exact GPS location to a satalite, instead of having the boy scouts try to hunt down an AM signal with a directional antenna, while the Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke "ISoar" <iceore (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Is a APRS (Automatic Postition Reporting System) enabled ham radio a reasonable substitute? Intro: http://nwaprs.org/downloads/WhatIsAPRS.pdf Way more info: http://web.usna.navy.mil/~bruninga/aprs.html Probably not for SAR since PLT's work fine BUT what a great idea for team flying. I note that Winpilot can plot team members position on the moving map display. Link members of the team with APRS and feed the data to Winpilot and each could see the position of the others. Bill Daniels Back to top JJ Sinclair Guest Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke Hi Gang, me again. Let's be realistic about ELT's. Automatic activation in a crash situation has got to have a very low sucess probability. The ship and therefore the ELT antenna, may very well be upside down. The ELT may be damaged in the crash. At best, we can't expect a search plane on scene in anything less than 24 hours. So what's our best way to communicate a distress signal? I would think it's our aircraft radio. Transmit on 123.3 and 123.5 to your buddies or anyone who answers. The local soaring operation should send out a search plane in the evening. In a contest, you can expect a search to be activated about 7:30 in the evening. I think it would be a good idea to carry a hand-held radio, as a back-up. If your aircraft radio is functioning (transmit light on) but the antenna lead is broken, then I would pull out as much wire (RG-5 as I could and strip away 24 inches of the outside (grounding) shield. Then get your new antenna as high as possible. The survivor that started this thread, could have done this and then tied the end of his antenna to a parachute shroud line and the other end to a stone. Toss the rock over a tree branch and start calling, MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY on all frequencies that might have listeners. Don't forget about 121.5 (emergency freq) To conserve your battery, the best time to brodcast is 15 to 18 and 45 to 48 minutes after the hour. Any SAR forces will be listening at these times. I cary a small survival kit with 2 quarts of bottled water in my ship, but what if I bailout? So, I just added several book matches and a very thin pocket knife to my parachute inspection pouch holder. With that parachute, a knife and matches, I feel I would have a fighting chance. Now, lets all conduct our soaring activities in a manor that doesn't require any of the above. JJ Sinclair Back to top Al Guest Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:16 pm    Post subject: Landout kits. Re: ELT's are a joke http://www.gliderforum.com/thread-view.asp?threadid=885&posts=1 Al "JJ Sinclair" <jjglider (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Hi Gang, me again. Let's be realistic about ELT's. Automatic activation in a crash situation has got to have a very low sucess probability. The ship and therefore the ELT antenna, may very well be upside down. The ELT may be damaged in the crash. At best, we can't expect a search plane on scene in anything less than 24 hours. So what's our best way to communicate a distress signal? I would think it's our aircraft radio. Transmit on 123.3 and 123.5 to your buddies or anyone who answers. The local soaring operation should send out a search plane in the evening. In a contest, you can expect a search to be activated about 7:30 in the evening. I think it would be a good idea to carry a hand-held radio, as a back-up. If your aircraft radio is functioning (transmit light on) but the antenna lead is broken, then I would pull out as much wire (RG-5 as I could and strip away 24 inches of the outside (grounding) shield. Then get your new antenna as high as possible. The survivor that started this thread, could have done this and then tied the end of his antenna to a parachute shroud line and the other end to a stone. Toss the rock over a tree branch and start calling, MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY on all frequencies that might have listeners. Don't forget about 121.5 (emergency freq) To conserve your battery, the best time to brodcast is 15 to 18 and 45 to 48 minutes after the hour. Any SAR forces will be listening at these times. I cary a small survival kit with 2 quarts of bottled water in my ship, but what if I bailout? So, I just added several book matches and a very thin pocket knife to my parachute inspection pouch holder. With that parachute, a knife and matches, I feel I would have a fighting chance. Now, lets all conduct our soaring activities in a manor that doesn't require any of the above. JJ Sinclair Back to top Eric Greenwell Guest Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke JJ Sinclair wrote: Quote: Hi Gang, me again. Let's be realistic about ELT's. Automatic activation in a crash situation has got to have a very low sucess probability. The ship and therefore the ELT antenna, may very well be upside down. The ELT may be damaged in the crash. At best, we can't expect a search plane on scene in anything less than 24 hours. At best, how about less than an hour? Happened to a friend of mine when he crashed his glider. It wasn't a search plane, but an officer on the ground sent to check on the ELT signal. It can be much longer, of course. Quote: So what's our best way to communicate a distress signal? I would think it's our aircraft radio. If the glider is upside down, or the crash was so severe the ELT was damaged, it seems this is unlikely to be successful, because the radio, batteries, wiring, and antenna will be probably be damaged. An ELT is much more rugged than the normal VHF radio system. An ELT would've still functioned in the crash near Hemet, while the glider radio didn't. Had the crash disabled the pilot, it wouldn't matter if the VHF radio still worked, while the ELT would've activated. These considerations, plus the ability to fly my motorglider when no other glider pilots are flying, and the ability to fly out of range of my crew radio, led me to install an ELT. An ELT is not perfect, but it's not expensive over it's lifetime of, say, 15 years: $15-$30/year for the unit including battery changes. JJ's comments for coping with the situation (no ELT, no cell phone contact, no portable VHF) make good sense, however. I would add a signal mirror to his parachute pack. Quote: Transmit on 123.3 and 123.5 to your buddies or anyone who answers. The local soaring operation should send out a search plane in the evening. In a contest, you can expect a search to be activated about 7:30 in the evening. I think it would be a good idea to carry a hand-held radio, as a back-up. If your aircraft radio is functioning (transmit light on) but the antenna lead is broken, then I would pull out as much wire (RG-5 as I could and strip away 24 inches of the outside (grounding) shield. Then get your new antenna as high as possible. The survivor that started this thread, could have done this and then tied the end of his antenna to a parachute shroud line and the other end to a stone. Toss the rock over a tree branch and start calling, MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY on all frequencies that might have listeners. Don't forget about 121.5 (emergency freq) To conserve your battery, the best time to brodcast is 15 to 18 and 45 to 48 minutes after the hour. Any SAR forces will be listening at these times. I cary a small survival kit with 2 quarts of bottled water in my ship, but what if I bailout? So, I just added several book matches and a very thin pocket knife to my parachute inspection pouch holder. With that parachute, a knife and matches, I feel I would have a fighting chance. Now, lets all conduct our soaring activities in a manor that doesn't require any of the above. JJ Sinclair Back to top Ray Payne Guest Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: ELT's are a joke try doing it in the frence alpes you plonker Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.