AirTalk.org

Jim Culp · Guest

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of gliding,

Please consider carefully. What is our nature? Individual;
or care from cradle to the grave?

Equipment should be pilot's choice, with pilot weighing
risks and outcome potentials.

Further, if pilot does not return from a gliding flight
let the contest management rest at ease knowing the
pilot has made the choice;
and it is not management's responsibility for search
and rescue or body recovery.

Yes, it is ok. Just say that up front and openly and
act accordingly.

Personal Responsibility/Personal Choice -

Let us affirm and uphold personal responsibility and
personal choice in gliding flight, and in our other
choices in life or death or risk or adventures.

Is this concept too individual now?

Is this the day of cradle-to-the-grave governance?

Is this the day when it seems your interests are other-folk's-resp
onsibilities
because they can manage your choices with
more right than you?

Is this the day when others can care for you and control
you and manage for you and decide for you and regulate
for you ?

Do you join that Careful Attention and Governance by
others for you?

Live free or die. Dont tread on me. These were and
are founding concepts of this land.

This is a land of individual right and opportunity.

Kindly, keep it that way.

Dont matter if they find my body sooner
or very very
very much later, or never. My body be dead.

If my body be alive, I will take my chances in survival
if any.
My choice. My outcomes. I live or die by that.

Kindly considered.

Dancing on clouds,

Keep it up!

Jim

Mal · Guest

Purchased my own ELT after I was skiing in on a resort I came out on to the
main ski runs at night I took the wrong turn.

I fly with it through my parachute.

When 4 wheel driving I take it.

Cost me $279 AU with postage.

Mal

"Jim Culp" <culpusa (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote

Pete Reinhart · Guest

Right on!!!!!
Cheers!, Pete
"Jim Culp" <culpusa (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote

Chris OCallaghan · Guest

This morning CNN reported the drownings of 4 people. A small child
fell into a fountain. A rescuer followed her immediately. As did
another. And another. All were killed by a circulation pump that
pinned them to the bottom.

This is a cautionary tale. Some, like the previous poster, would say
the moral is "Look before your leap." Others might recognize that it
is in our primal nature to risk our lives to save others.

The lesson I've learned is that while I may be harwired to demonstrate
bravado through lack of concern for my own welfare, I should at the
very least consider those who are hardwired to respond to any call for
help. And a glider which doesn't return home carries with it an
implied call for help.

Joseph Campbell discussed this "need to help," even at risk to one's
own well-being, in The Hero with a Thousand Faces and The Power of
Myth. Both are interesting reads -- and emphasize just how dear such
people really are.

To sum up, since this is only a brief return to the group, if you
believe it is important to consider the safety of others, install the
best ELT (406) you can find. If you want to enhance your own safety,
consider a GPS PLB. But recognize the limitations of each, and
especially the 121.5 MHz units.

Thomas Knauff · Guest

I carry a personal ELT with me because I consider my greatest risk while
flying competitions is a mid-air collision.

If I bail out, the glider will be some distance from my location -
especially when flying at higher altitudes.

The glider ELT will only trigger if it crashes in a manner that will set off
the automatic feature of the ELT.

Cell phones are not reliable in many parts of the country.

Better locating devices are on the way, including cell phone locating
technology, but for about $500 dollars, I have an ELT in my glider and with
me.

I have been on several searches for ELT signals, and in every case, the
aircraft location was found in a couple of hours. I am equally sure there
are situations where the signal may be very difficult to track down.

A locating device gives a possibility of being located. Having none at all
may result in several days of being found if ever.

Tom Knauff

"Todd Pattist" <tpattist (AT) DONTSPAMME (DOT) snet.net> wrote

Wallace Berry · Guest

Absolutely! Well said Jim.

In article <2jdmftFvbs7iU1 (AT) uni-berlin (DOT) de>, Jim Culp <culpusa (AT) aol (DOT) com>
wrote:

Vorsanger1 · Guest

Jim indicated that it is his choice whether or not to carry an ELT, and it is
NOT the contest manager's responsibility to search and rescue, or body
recovery. The fact is that when a plane or boat goes missing, a whole lot of
assets and efforts go into trying to help / rescue the crew. That being said,
and since it is the individual pilot's responsibility to deny or accept
assistance, let all those pilots who opt NOT to be helped to have this
preference down in writing, notarized, etc...This in order to absolve everybody
else in the case of a mishap. We are a litigious society, and you can bet that
failing that, the grieving widow and children will sue the CAP, the local
sheriff, fire department, the contest organizers and manager and anyone else
within reach for noth having found the body sooner when there was still a
chance that the pilot might have been alive at the time of the accident.

Cheers anyhow,

Charles

Dirk Elber · Guest

Jim you have a good point that it is the pilot's choice. But at a
contest the Organizers are required to make every effort to locate you,
so they should be given the best chance of doing so. It may not be your
problem when all is said and done, but a lot of people, including family
members and those soaring friends that might want to spend hours/days
searching the ridges of the appalachians (or swamps of Florida), would
definitely appreciate you investing in one more piece of equipment.
Compared to the hardships that could be endured, an ELT is a simple
investment. Just re-read John Good's reports from Mifflin and consider
what those searchers would still be going through had they not known
where to look for Peter.
And even for non-contest pilots this is an important consideration. If
you are out by yourself on a x-country flight, who is going to know
where to look in case something goes wrong. Those of us that fly in
terrain such as the appalachians have definitely had the reason for
flying with ELTs brought to our attention over and over. But its also a
good thing to have installed for those that fly in any terrain.

Thank you KG, UH and others for making those many safety talks about the
advantages of having an ELT installed and how best to install them in
the various types of gliders.

Dirk

Asw-20 "E" - yes ELT equipped

Wallace Berry wrote:

Eric Greenwell · Guest

Vorsanger1 wrote:

Romeo Delta · Guest

Dirk Elber <delber (AT) REMOVEtds (DOT) net> wrote in message >

Ian Cant · Guest

While I have some sympathy for Jim Culp's position
as an abstract philosophical position, and would not
want to hinder him from practicing it as he sees fit,
it applies in both directions. If contest organizers
feel an ELT is important enough to be mandatory, they
can demand it as an exercise of their individual and
collective responsibility; Jim can then choose to ignore
the contest, but should not whine about the rules.

Ian

At 06:12 18 June 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Eric Greenwell · Guest

Romeo Delta wrote:

Mike Lindsay · Guest

In article <2jdmftFvbs7iU1 (AT) uni-berlin (DOT) de>, Jim Culp <culpusa (AT) aol (DOT) com>
writes

Mike Lindsay · Guest

In article <v2g3d0l4a6h64t4kj8tnr1up9kf2rdubdn (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>, Todd Pattist
<tpattist (AT) DONTSPAMME (DOT) snet.net> writes

Romeo Delta · Guest

Mr. Greenwell:

Please be advised that I just used the ammo provided by the previous
poster. Certainly you must agree that it's only human nature to turn
up the sales pitch just a notch when justifying the need for something
that you just so happen to sell--hence, my voiced scepticism. I'm sure
KG is a big boy and can handle it. UH was unfortunately fragged by
association--a thousand pardons.

To say it another way, I, for one, am not otherwise convinced that
anyone who sells such "stuff" for a living preaches about it solely
out of the goodness of his heart (which was my take of the post
previous to my former). To place someone up on a pedistal for doing
so is professing naivity.

Regardless, the bottom line is an ELT, from an operational
perspective, is OPTIONAL equipment. If some private airport owner
feels justified in his mind for whatever reason to require ELTs as a
condition to fly from his airfield--then that's his business (as well
the business of any pilots accepting of such dictation), except that
such nonsense is capable of permeating out to affect the soaring
community as a whole at which time it is past the point of becoming
everyone's business.

So pardon me if I voice my concern at this potential eventuality.
Soaring is expensive enough without some yea-hoo in VA starting a
costly trend on a whim. What's the next mandate to enjoy the
SIMPLICITY of soaring? Transponders, weather radar, radar altimeters?

If this pilot makes the conscience choice to fly without an ELT, it is
done so at MY accepted peril. Matter of fact, every time I have ever
made the decision to takeoff [solo] it has always been and will
continue to be at MY own personal peril. And I don't take lightly
anyone's attempt to usurp the experience, ability, and authority I
have to make such a decision.

I'm sorry that someone crashed while flying a contest (BTW having an
ELT apparently didn't stop that from happening). But should that
necessarily result in mandating we all should now run out and buy ELTs
[as a condition to compete in a soaring contest]? Maybe we should
just not task flying near mountains. Heck, let's just stop flying
altogether 'cause it's inherently dangerous. No thousand dollar piece
of equipment can change that fact.

RD