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S Herman
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 Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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"On April 6, 2005, at 1300 Hawaiian standard time, a Schweizer SGS
2-32 glider, N693U, impacted mountainous terrain 0.4 miles south of
the Dillingham Airfield, Mokuleia, Hawaii. The commercial glider pilot
was fatally injured and the two passengers sustained minor injuries.
<snipped>
The pilot received his student pilot certificate on March 16, 2005. On
March 24, 2005, he received his private pilot certificate with a
glider rating. On March 26, 2005, he obtained his commercial pilot
certificate with a glider rating. According to the pilot's logbook, as
of April 5, 2005 (the day before the accident), he accumulated a total
of 48.4 hours of flight time, of which 31.2 hours were as
pilot-in-command."
Is it this easy to obtain a commercial glider certificate? What am I
missing here?
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S Herman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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On 27 May 2005 15:35:47 -0700, "Michael"
<usenetreplies (AT) thisoldairplane (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | You're missing nothing. You only need 25 hours and 100 landings to be
a commercial pilot in a glider. Only 2 of those hours and 10 of those
landings must be solo. No significant soaring experience, and no cross
country flying expereince at all is required.
Flying 25 hours in 10 days is aggressive, but certainly not out of the
question.
I17 hours of dual is not unreasonable for a talented individual (or
someone with parachute or ultralight experience, which the FAA would
not consider) to get to the commercial glider - especially flying
Schweizers.
Michael
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Seems too little experience to me. Being able to go from zero hours to
landing a job flying tourists in Hawaii in just a couple weeks? How
could he get insured, let alone proficient?
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Robert Chambers
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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S Herman wrote:
| Quote: | On 27 May 2005 15:35:47 -0700, "Michael"
[email]usenetreplies (AT) thisoldairplane (DOT) com[/email]> wrote:
You're missing nothing. You only need 25 hours and 100 landings to be
a commercial pilot in a glider. Only 2 of those hours and 10 of those
landings must be solo. No significant soaring experience, and no cross
country flying expereince at all is required.
Flying 25 hours in 10 days is aggressive, but certainly not out of the
question.
I17 hours of dual is not unreasonable for a talented individual (or
someone with parachute or ultralight experience, which the FAA would
not consider) to get to the commercial glider - especially flying
Schweizers.
Michael
Seems too little experience to me. Being able to go from zero hours to
landing a job flying tourists in Hawaii in just a couple weeks? How
could he get insured, let alone proficient?
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It would appear that he hadn't mastered the proficient part.
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BTIZ
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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| Quote: | Seems too little experience to me. Being able to go from zero hours to
landing a job flying tourists in Hawaii in just a couple weeks? How
could he get insured, let alone proficient?
It would appear that he hadn't mastered the proficient part.
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It is very quick... one RUMOR was that he had a glider rating from another
country.. and it was easier on the paperwork to go through the motions of US
ticket than to get one based on his foreign ticket.. also a US glider rating
achieved that way would only be at the private level. So hours reported are
only what he reported on the 8710 as the minimum required to achieve the US
ticket.
But in any case.. he obviously did not have the experience needed for the
conditions on the north coast of Hawaii.
BT
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private
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 4:26 am Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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There was a lengthy thread regarding this on rec.aviation.soaring at the
time of the crash. I believe the subject line was "48.4 hours". The
possibility of a rating from another country was raised and was reported to
not be the case.
There is a current thread with subject line "is a motor glider a powered
aircraft" that indicates that this pilot would have been legal to fly a
motor glider in commercial service. There are current motor gliders factory
equipped with tow hooks that would allow the aircraft to be used for towing
gliders or banners and they may be equipped with surveillance equipment and
used for aerial photo work.
It certainly raises troubling questions regarding the minimal pilot
qualification.
"BTIZ" <btiznospm2 (AT) cox (DOT) nospm.net> wrote
| Quote: | Seems too little experience to me. Being able to go from zero hours to
landing a job flying tourists in Hawaii in just a couple weeks? How
could he get insured, let alone proficient?
It would appear that he hadn't mastered the proficient part.
It is very quick... one RUMOR was that he had a glider rating from another
country.. and it was easier on the paperwork to go through the motions of
US
ticket than to get one based on his foreign ticket.. also a US glider
rating
achieved that way would only be at the private level. So hours reported
are
only what he reported on the 8710 as the minimum required to achieve the
US
ticket.
But in any case.. he obviously did not have the experience needed for the
conditions on the north coast of Hawaii.
BT
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BTIZ
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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the minimum pilot qualification for towing is outlined in 61.69,
private pilot and 100hrs in category class and type..
to tow with a motor glider would require 100hrs in category "glider", one
may debate the "class" of "motorglider" or "self launch" and whether 100 hrs
would be required there.
Most insurance companies will not cover a pilot with less than 200hrs
"power", but that does not mean he can't tow.. he's just not insured.
BT
"private" <please (AT) dont (DOT) bother> wrote
| Quote: | There was a lengthy thread regarding this on rec.aviation.soaring at the
time of the crash. I believe the subject line was "48.4 hours". The
possibility of a rating from another country was raised and was reported
to
not be the case.
There is a current thread with subject line "is a motor glider a powered
aircraft" that indicates that this pilot would have been legal to fly a
motor glider in commercial service. There are current motor gliders
factory
equipped with tow hooks that would allow the aircraft to be used for
towing
gliders or banners and they may be equipped with surveillance equipment
and
used for aerial photo work.
It certainly raises troubling questions regarding the minimal pilot
qualification.
"BTIZ" <btiznospm2 (AT) cox (DOT) nospm.net> wrote in message
news:kFPle.1200$fp.675 (AT) fed1read05 (DOT) ..
Seems too little experience to me. Being able to go from zero hours to
landing a job flying tourists in Hawaii in just a couple weeks? How
could he get insured, let alone proficient?
It would appear that he hadn't mastered the proficient part.
It is very quick... one RUMOR was that he had a glider rating from
another
country.. and it was easier on the paperwork to go through the motions of
US
ticket than to get one based on his foreign ticket.. also a US glider
rating
achieved that way would only be at the private level. So hours reported
are
only what he reported on the 8710 as the minimum required to achieve the
US
ticket.
But in any case.. he obviously did not have the experience needed for the
conditions on the north coast of Hawaii.
BT
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private
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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"BTIZ" <btiznospm2 (AT) cox (DOT) nospm.net> wrote
| Quote: | the minimum pilot qualification for towing is outlined in 61.69,
private pilot and 100hrs in category class and type..
to tow with a motor glider would require 100hrs in category "glider", one
may debate the "class" of "motorglider" or "self launch" and whether 100
hrs
would be required there.
|
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. As a Canadian I needed
some direction in FAR research. The section reference 61.69 combined with
the definition section in part 1 make things much clearer. It was a good
exercise for me.
These required qualifications make a lot more sense.
Would a tow pilot (of a motor glider) who was "compensated" also require a
CPL asel or would a commercial glider pilot license + PPL be sufficient?
snip
| Quote: | "private" <please (AT) dont (DOT) bother> wrote in message
news:nqSle.1500244$6l.1480399 (AT) pd7tw2no (DOT) ..
There was a lengthy thread regarding this on rec.aviation.soaring at the
time of the crash. I believe the subject line was "48.4 hours". The
possibility of a rating from another country was raised and was reported
to not be the case.
snip |
Further research of qualifications for commercial glider license
yields........
61.129 (f) (2) 200 hours of flight time as a pilot in heavier-than-air
aircraft and at least 20 flights in a glider as pilot in command, including
at least-
Am I correct to think that the Hawaii pilot would have had at least 151.7
hrs. (probably more like 175) as pilot (could be dual instruction) in other
aircraft in addition to his 48.4 hrs in gliders in order to get a commercial
glider license?
Would this allow him to give scenic flights (within 50 miles) in a motor
glider?
This seems to indicate that he had more experience than initially reported.
It was still a tragedy. My condolences to family and friends.
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BTIZ
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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| Quote: | Would a tow pilot (of a motor glider) who was "compensated" also require a
CPL asel or would a commercial glider pilot license + PPL be sufficient?
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In the US.. a Private Pilot cannot receive compensation... this issue has
been beaten to death on rec.aviation.soaring..
He would not need any Power or Airplane rating.. but he would need a
Commercial Glider rating to be paid to tow. In the US.. a motorglider is a
glider first... self launched second.. you do not need an airplane rating to
fly it.. you need a glider rating.
There is "glider", and then there are three ways to get them airborne.. aero
tow, ground (winch) launch and "self launch" (motorized glider).
BT
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BTIZ
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:55 am Post subject: Re: Easy Glider Rating?? |
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Todd.. this has been beaten to death between us before.. shall we agree to
disagree?
BT
"T o d d P a t t i s t" <tpattist (AT) dontspamme (DOT) snet.net> wrote
| Quote: | "BTIZ" <btiznospm2 (AT) cox (DOT) nospm.net> wrote:
In the US.. a Private Pilot cannot receive compensation... this issue has
been beaten to death on rec.aviation.soaring..
The legal answer is: In the US.. a Private Pilot cannot
receive compensation... unless he falls within an exception.
Being compensated for towing *is* an exception. The wording
is quite clear. No one familiar with the general rule or
"no compensation for PP's" can quite believe this, and it's
likely the exception was intended to be narrower. However,
when the rules were rewritten a second time, they did not
"fix" or narrow this exception, so at this point, it appears
to be legal for a PP to be compensated in the U.S for
towing. Official FAA sources have said it's legal and it's
not legal. The only correct answer comes from the Chief
Counsel's Office, and they haven't issued an interpretation
on this point.
The practical answer is: get a commercial rating first, any
question goes away and you can be insured.
Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
(first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)
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