AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Dual long X-C          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviation (Students) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message John Guest Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:25 pm    Post subject: Dual long X-C I had a dual X-C on Monday evening. By the time we landed at our scheduled second airport, it was total darkness. The tower directed us to land on 18. My instrutor pulled out his IFR charts and set the GPS, (GPS approach, no ILS on 1, to take us direct to the middle marker. The chart shows we should be at 1700 feet at that point, so he programmed the GPS - 500feet descent, airspeed was received from the GPS. The GPS then gave us a time and distance countdown as to when we needed to start our descent to be at the proper altitude at the marker. (pretty cool, now if I can remember how to do it). I kept the needle centered and started us on a 500 feet descent when the time reached "0". Just above our decision height I let my instructor know I wasn't seeing the runway side lights, just the red end lights. He pointed out that I was looking at the end of runway 14. I was watching the instruments and looking up to where I thought we were going. What I didn't realize was that there was a slight cross wind, and I was keeping the plane at a crab without realizing it. When I looked to our 10:00 position I could see that we were about 400 feet AGL, lined up with the center line and the vasi showing red over white. I don't know if I have ever lined the plane up better on short final. My only dissapointment - I wish flying during the day had the smooth air we had that night. John Back to top zatatime Guest Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Dual long X-C On 14 Oct 2004 13:25:40 -0700, [email]ddlong (AT) gmail (DOT) com[/email] (John) wrote: Quote: My instrutor pulled out his IFR charts and set the GPS, (GPS approach, no ILS on 1, to take us direct to the middle marker. Was this flight for a Private certificate? If so your instructor didn't do you any justice at all performing a pseudo instrument approach with you. He should have taught you good VFR procedures for flying into an airport at night (something you could do again without any trouble). Sounds like you've got a green instructor who did you a dis-service on what could've benn a great learning experience. Sorry, z Back to top Ron Natalie Guest Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Dual long X-C John wrote: Quote: The tower directed us to land on 18. My instrutor pulled out his IFR charts and set the GPS, (GPS approach, no ILS on 1, to take us direct to the middle marker. You had a GPS approach with a middle marker? Back to top BTIZ Guest Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: Dual long X-C if this had been for a private pilot.. he would have been better off letting you make a night VFR approach and fly a normal pattern.. if this is for a Commercial rating.. which it does not sound like it was.. then following the GPS to the runway is a good crutch... but I believe the FARs state.. NIGHT VFR and DAY VFR cross country training.. the instrument approach at the end could negate the training.. but it was an interesting demonstration on using everything you've got available to you.. but it can lead you astray by looking at the wrong runway based on winds and crabby angles.. BT "John" <ddlong (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I had a dual X-C on Monday evening. By the time we landed at our scheduled second airport, it was total darkness. The tower directed us to land on 18. My instrutor pulled out his IFR charts and set the GPS, (GPS approach, no ILS on 1, to take us direct to the middle marker. The chart shows we should be at 1700 feet at that point, so he programmed the GPS - 500feet descent, airspeed was received from the GPS. The GPS then gave us a time and distance countdown as to when we needed to start our descent to be at the proper altitude at the marker. (pretty cool, now if I can remember how to do it). I kept the needle centered and started us on a 500 feet descent when the time reached "0". Just above our decision height I let my instructor know I wasn't seeing the runway side lights, just the red end lights. He pointed out that I was looking at the end of runway 14. I was watching the instruments and looking up to where I thought we were going. What I didn't realize was that there was a slight cross wind, and I was keeping the plane at a crab without realizing it. When I looked to our 10:00 position I could see that we were about 400 feet AGL, lined up with the center line and the vasi showing red over white. I don't know if I have ever lined the plane up better on short final. My only dissapointment - I wish flying during the day had the smooth air we had that night. John Back to top Gary Drescher Guest Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:48 am    Post subject: Re: Dual long X-C "BTIZ" <btiznospm2 (AT) cox (DOT) nospm.net> wrote Quote: if this is for a Commercial rating.. which it does not sound like it was.. then following the GPS to the runway is a good crutch... but I believe the FARs state.. NIGHT VFR and DAY VFR cross country training.. the instrument approach at the end could negate the training.. No, 61.129a3iii and iv only require that the training flights occur under VFR conditions; they don't have to be VFR flights. And even if they did, you can use whatever nav aids you like without thereby ceasing to be VFR. --Gary Back to top BTIZ Guest Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: Dual long X-C "Gary Drescher" <GLDrescher (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: "BTIZ" <btiznospm2 (AT) cox (DOT) nospm.net> wrote in message news:otGbd.5716$bk1.2157 (AT) fed1read05 (DOT) .. if this is for a Commercial rating.. which it does not sound like it was.. then following the GPS to the runway is a good crutch... but I believe the FARs state.. NIGHT VFR and DAY VFR cross country training.. the instrument approach at the end could negate the training.. No, 61.129a3iii and iv only require that the training flights occur under VFR conditions; they don't have to be VFR flights. And even if they did, you can use whatever nav aids you like without thereby ceasing to be VFR. --Gary agreed Gary... it does appear that he completed the flight in VFR conditions.. but he made it seem like he was hood flying and not using visual references.. granted.. a VFR cross country requiring an instrument approach at the destination for local weather would be a negating factor. 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