AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Directional control after touchdown...          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Aviators (General Discussions) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Dan Guest Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Directional control after touchdown... I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the following situation: You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible. You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown. After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop. What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation? Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated crosswind. Increasing back pressure would make the nosewheel even less effective. --Dan Back to top Matt Whiting Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... Dudley Henriques wrote: Quote: This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire thread. "Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for the wind. This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all forecast and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and direction. Dudley Henriques Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish they were. Matt Back to top Alan Gerber Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... In rec.aviation.student B A R R Y <DwightSchrute (AT) dundermifflin (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Most of the non-towered fields I use have either an AWOS or ASOS (maybe Belfort? <G>), that updates every minute, but the same caveats apply about the location of the instrument taking the reading vs. the runway. Besides that, the wind can *change* between the time the reading is taken and the time you flare. I went up for some crosswind practice the other day, and the winds were really squirrelly -- changing constantly, and very different at altitude and on the ground. Every few minutes, somebody would key the mike to get a wind check from the local reporting station on the CTAF. Each time, the winds were noticeably different, both in direction and strength. It was kind of funny, and, while I paid attention, I didn't count on the information still being correct while I was landing. Each landing was different from the one before, and I had to pay attention to the winds each moment, and react to what they were doing there, not what they were reported to be. Which made it a lot of fun, of course. .... Alan -- Alan Gerber PP-ASEL gerber AT panix DOT com Back to top Dudley Henriques Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... "Matt Whiting" <whiting (AT) epix (DOT) net> wrote in message news:%o44i.10173$Oc.238858 (AT) news1 (DOT) epix.net... Quote: Dudley Henriques wrote: This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire thread. "Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for the wind. This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all forecast and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and direction. Dudley Henriques Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish they were. Matt "You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish they were". How's that!! ) DH Back to top Newps Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... Bill Denton wrote: Quote: Could it be the ground effect differences between low wing and high wing aircraft that are contributing to this issue? No, I noticed that right away after I bought my Bonanza. With my 182 it was second nature to manipulate the aileron for the wind while taxiing. In the Bo I don't bother as there's no reason to. I simply hold the yoke so the controls don't get slammed around in the wind. With a high wing the wing is out there on a longer lever plus the wheel track is a little narrower. Back to top Matt Whiting Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... Dudley Henriques wrote: Quote: "Matt Whiting" <whiting (AT) epix (DOT) net> wrote in message news:%o44i.10173$Oc.238858 (AT) news1 (DOT) epix.net... Dudley Henriques wrote: This brings out the most important point to be made in this entire thread. "Let the AIRPLANE tell you what the ACTUAL winds are and fly the approach and landing doing whatever the AIRPLANE tells you needs to be done for the wind. This is cardinal rule 1 for ALL landings and supercedes any and all forecast and radio transmitted expectation for wind condition and direction. Dudley Henriques Say it again, Dudley! You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish they were. Matt "You fly the conditions as they exist, not what you think they are or wish they were". How's that!! ) DH That's a keeper! :-) Matt Back to top Dave Doe Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... In article <1179635215.347787.34450 (AT) o5g2000hsb (DOT) googlegroups.com>, dsfh (AT) cox (DOT) net says... Quote: I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the following situation: You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible. You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown. After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop. What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation? Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated crosswind. Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift, rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction. -- Duncan Back to top Dan Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... On May 20, 6:09 pm, Dave Doe <h...@work.ok> wrote: Quote: In article <1179635215.347787.34...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, d...@cox.net says... I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the following situation: You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible. You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown. After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop. What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation? Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated crosswind. Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift, rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction. -- Duncan- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thanks. That's exactly what I was getting at. Obviously, I know this is true when still in the air, but I was not sure if this rule changed when rolling down the runway... --Dan Back to top Newps Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... Peter Dohm wrote: Quote: I am pretty sure that there is also more wind six feet from the graound than there is three feet from the ground. You're kidding. Quote: Presumably there are plenty of statistics on the subject, You'll never find that as it isn't true. Back to top Peter Dohm Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... "Newps" <nowhere (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message news:TIKdneJSYKPSQ83bnZ2dnUVZ_vWtnZ2d (AT) bresnan (DOT) com... Quote: Bill Denton wrote: Could it be the ground effect differences between low wing and high wing aircraft that are contributing to this issue? No, I noticed that right away after I bought my Bonanza. With my 182 it was second nature to manipulate the aileron for the wind while taxiing. In the Bo I don't bother as there's no reason to. I simply hold the yoke so the controls don't get slammed around in the wind. With a high wing the wing is out there on a longer lever plus the wheel track is a little narrower. I am pretty sure that there is also more wind six feet from the graound than there is three feet from the ground. Presumably there are plenty of statistics on the subject, although I have no idea where to look or would would make a good search argument for and internet search. Peter Back to top Dave Doe Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... In article <kP64i.10178$Oc.239046 (AT) news1 (DOT) epix.net>, whiting (AT) epix (DOT) net says... Quote: Dave Doe wrote: In article <1179635215.347787.34450 (AT) o5g2000hsb (DOT) googlegroups.com>, dsfh (AT) cox (DOT) net says... I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the following situation: You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible. You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown. After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop. What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation? Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated crosswind. Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift, rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction. Once you are on the runway, the ailerons aren't going to do much for drift. They are as you touch down on one wheel - which is where I'm comin from (the OP can't have much weight on the wheels if the plane is still drifting as he describes - well that's the way I read it). -- Duncan Back to top Matt Whiting Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... Dave Doe wrote: Quote: In article <1179635215.347787.34450 (AT) o5g2000hsb (DOT) googlegroups.com>, dsfh (AT) cox (DOT) net says... I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the following situation: You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible. You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown. After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop. What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation? Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated crosswind. Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift, rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction. Once you are on the runway, the ailerons aren't going to do much for drift. Matt Back to top Matt Whiting Guest Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... Dan wrote: Quote: On May 20, 6:09 pm, Dave Doe <h...@work.ok> wrote: In article <1179635215.347787.34...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, d...@cox.net says... I've got a question for the group. Suppose you find yourself in the following situation: You are flying a C182, landing on runway 22. The ATIS lists the winds as 240 at 10. The windsock is not visible. You approach at a normal airspeed, full flaps, coming over the numbers at 65 kts. The mains touchdown, followed by the nosegear. Slight right aileron is being maintained into the wind. Everything is aligned properly and on the centerline at touchdown. After touchdown the plane starts to drift to the right side of the runway. You try to correct by pointing the nose back to the centerline with left rudder. The nose seems to be pointed left, but the plane is still drifting right. It feels like any more left rudder could result in bad skidding and/or a ground loop. What are the proper control inputs to correct the situation? Left aileron would be in the _opposite_ direction of the indicated crosswind. Regardless, this is the right move (IMO) - as it's possibly caused by less crosswind down at RWY level - you use aileron to control the drift, rudder to keep it pointing in the right direction. -- Duncan- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thanks. That's exactly what I was getting at. Obviously, I know this is true when still in the air, but I was not sure if this rule changed when rolling down the runway... It changes a lot. Drift is controlled in the air by slipping which requires bank. Since you can't bank while on the ground, the ailerons aren't going to do much for drift. They help keep weight on the upwind wheels to provide better traction and they help keep the wind from flipping you over, they they don't do squat for drift. That is a function of rudder and tire traction. Matt Back to top Maxwell Guest Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... "Dan" <dsfh (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote in message news:1179684118.314979.244770 (AT) a26g2000pre (DOT) googlegroups.com... Quote: On May 20, 6:34 am, john smith <jsm...@net.net> wrote: Dan wrote: I am working on a checkout in this C182 after about 400 hours in Pipers. Compared to what I am used to, the Cessna ground handling (especially after touchdown) seems very squirrley. I've had the same experience with the couple hours I have in 152s and 172s as well. Pipers will always feel much more "sure footed" compared to Cessnas, it's all in the landing gear. Walk up to both aircraft when they are untied and try rocking the wings. Big difference. The narrow stance and spring steel landing gear is a completely different ballgame. The Piper will feel more agile on a nice paved runway, but it's hard to beat the ride of a Cessna when the surface starts getting rough. Just boils down to personal preference and where you fly most I guess. Back to top Matt Barrow Guest Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Directional control after touchdown... "Newps" <nowhere (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message news:W7OdnQrsP_gsOMzbnZ2dnUVZ_oninZ2d (AT) bresnan (DOT) com... Quote: Matt Whiting wrote: You'll never find that as it isn't true. It absolutely is true. Wind velocity drops dramatically as it approaches a surface. I better get my digital handheld windmeter recalibrated becxause at 4 feet, the top of the wing on my Bo and six feet, the top of the wing on a typical Cessna the wind is the same. I'm sure Whiting will come back that there's 0.05 MPH difference and that difference should be taken into account. 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