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current small aircraft market????
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Private
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote



In the 'Would you buy this engine' thread,

Peter R. said "With the glut of aircraft on the market"
and
John Galban said "with the airplane market heavily favoring the buyer these
days,"

I have been watching the for sale adverts looking for a Decathlon, and seem
to note a LOT more aircraft than I remember being normal. I am not sure if
this situation has been developing for some time or if it is just a normal
seasonal thing. I cannot comment on the actual sale prices but the asking
prices do not seem to reflect the increased supply.

Comments?






?

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John Galban
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote



On May 19, 4:57 pm, "Private" <ple...@dont.bother> wrote:
Quote:

I have been watching the for sale adverts looking for a Decathlon, and seem
to note a LOT more aircraft than I remember being normal. I am not sure if
this situation has been developing for some time or if it is just a normal
seasonal thing. I cannot comment on the actual sale prices but the asking
prices do not seem to reflect the increased supply.


The situation has been building for over a year. My best guess is
that increased fuel prices have put a damper on the market. I know
several owners that have had their planes for sale for over 6 months,
with little interest. The asking prices are still high, but the
actual selling prices are not. One of my airport neighbors finally
found a buyer for his plane. It had a runout engine, but was
otherwise perfect. No mechanical squawks, great panel, all leather
interior and excellent paint. After nearly a year on the market, he
sold for 60% of his asking price.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
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Guest






PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 5:58 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

On May 19, 4:57 pm, "Private" <ple...@dont.bother> wrote:
Quote:
In the 'Would you buy this engine' thread,

Peter R. said "With the glut of aircraft on the market"
There is also the possibility that the new Light-Sport Aircraft

flooding the market have an influence on the market. There are over
100 LSA models available now and more coming everyday. Fun flying for
4 to 5 gph sure is nice when gas costs $3 to $4 a gallon. Looking at
statistics pilots fly less than 100 hours a year and carry one or less
passengers so the Light-Sport Aircraft can cover most of the fun
flying done today statistically. I'm not saying the LSAs are doing all
the flying just that they might be having an affect and growing.

Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
See ya on Sport Aircraft group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/




Quote:
and
John Galban said "with the airplane market heavily favoring the buyer these
days,"

I have been watching the for sale adverts looking for a Decathlon, and seem
to note a LOT more aircraft than I remember being normal. I am not sure if
this situation has been developing for some time or if it is just a normal
seasonal thing. I cannot comment on the actual sale prices but the asking
prices do not seem to reflect the increased supply.

Comments?

?
Back to top
Matt Whiting
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

John Galban wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 4:57 pm, "Private" <ple...@dont.bother> wrote:
I have been watching the for sale adverts looking for a Decathlon, and seem
to note a LOT more aircraft than I remember being normal. I am not sure if
this situation has been developing for some time or if it is just a normal
seasonal thing. I cannot comment on the actual sale prices but the asking
prices do not seem to reflect the increased supply.


The situation has been building for over a year. My best guess is
that increased fuel prices have put a damper on the market. I know
several owners that have had their planes for sale for over 6 months,
with little interest. The asking prices are still high, but the
actual selling prices are not. One of my airport neighbors finally
found a buyer for his plane. It had a runout engine, but was
otherwise perfect. No mechanical squawks, great panel, all leather
interior and excellent paint. After nearly a year on the market, he
sold for 60% of his asking price.

I think fuel costs are just one part of the overall situation. Where I
live there are several other problems. One, it is getting hard to find
good maintenance for light airplanes. Several of the small airports
around no longer have an A&P on the field. Insurance costs are higher
and getting harder to get. I can't fly in my company's general aviation
program as I can no longer buy the $1MM "smooth" insurance my company
requires. This was readily available in the mid 90s before 9/11. Add
these challenges to fuel costs and availability of so many other forms
of entertainment and it isn't hard to predict the future of GA.


Matt
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Matt Whiting
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Jim Carter wrote:
Quote:
Matt,
is $1MM flat not available or just too expensive. I'm trying to design
an employee pilot program for my company and am gathering data like that. I
filed for a quote the other day and still haven't heard back so maybe the
market is really drying up.


I was flat out unable to find this coverage. If you find someone who
will write such a policy, please let me know. I didn't try Lloyds of
London, but I called AOPA and a also private insurance broker that
supposedly can deal with any company other than AVEMCO (which is who I
think AOPA uses) and both told me that $1MM smooth simply wasn't available.

Matt
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Jim Carter
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Matt,
is $1MM flat not available or just too expensive. I'm trying to design
an employee pilot program for my company and am gathering data like that. I
filed for a quote the other day and still haven't heard back so maybe the
market is really drying up.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Matt Whiting" <whiting (AT) epix (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:ukO3i.10162$Oc.237793 (AT) news1 (DOT) epix.net...
Quote:
John Galban wrote:
On May 19, 4:57 pm, "Private" <ple...@dont.bother> wrote:
I have been watching the for sale adverts looking for a Decathlon, and
seem
to note a LOT more aircraft than I remember being normal. I am not sure
if
this situation has been developing for some time or if it is just a
normal
seasonal thing. I cannot comment on the actual sale prices but the
asking
prices do not seem to reflect the increased supply.


The situation has been building for over a year. My best guess is
that increased fuel prices have put a damper on the market. I know
several owners that have had their planes for sale for over 6 months,
with little interest. The asking prices are still high, but the
actual selling prices are not. One of my airport neighbors finally
found a buyer for his plane. It had a runout engine, but was
otherwise perfect. No mechanical squawks, great panel, all leather
interior and excellent paint. After nearly a year on the market, he
sold for 60% of his asking price.

I think fuel costs are just one part of the overall situation. Where I
live there are several other problems. One, it is getting hard to find
good maintenance for light airplanes. Several of the small airports
around no longer have an A&P on the field. Insurance costs are higher and
getting harder to get. I can't fly in my company's general aviation
program as I can no longer buy the $1MM "smooth" insurance my company
requires. This was readily available in the mid 90s before 9/11. Add
these challenges to fuel costs and availability of so many other forms of
entertainment and it isn't hard to predict the future of GA.


Matt
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Longworth
Guest





PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

On May 19, 10:36 pm, Matt Whiting <whit...@epix.net> wrote:
Quote:
I was flat out unable to find this coverage. If you find someone who
will write such a policy, please let me know. I didn't try Lloyds of
London, but I called AOPA and a also private insurance broker that
supposedly can deal with any company other than AVEMCO (which is who I
think AOPA uses) and both told me that $1MM smooth simply wasn't available.

Matt

Matt,
We have had $1M smooth with USAIG the last several years starting
when we both had less than 500hrs and without instrument ratings.
Last year, we checked around and found that AOPA agreed to offer $1M
smooth with AIG but with a somewhat higher premium than USAIG so we
stayed with USAIG. Previously, AOPA told us that they could not offer
$1M smooth, maybe the change had something to do with the fact that we
got over 500hrs and with instrument ratings. We stayed with USAIG
this year but switched agency since the previous one could not get us
additional insured with waiver of subrogation free of charge for Guy
Maher, a CFI specialized in Cardinal operation (whom we plan to take a
training course this summer). Through the new agency, I learned that
we could reduce our premium from $1545 to $1311 with $2500 deductible
for the hull coverage (insured at $60K). This is about the same as
what we got before with AIG for the $1M with $100K sublimit.

Hai Longworth
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Dan Luke
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 1:17 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

Quote:
I was flat out unable to find this coverage. If you find someone who will
write such a policy, please let me know. I didn't try Lloyds of London, but
I called AOPA and a also private insurance broker that supposedly can deal
with any company other than AVEMCO (which is who I think AOPA uses) and both
told me that $1MM smooth simply wasn't available.

I must be missing something here.

I just upgraded my coverage to $1M smooth through the AOPA agency with no
trouble. Cost me an extra $600/yr.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
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Matt Whiting
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Longworth wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 10:36 pm, Matt Whiting <whit...@epix.net> wrote:
I was flat out unable to find this coverage. If you find someone who
will write such a policy, please let me know. I didn't try Lloyds of
London, but I called AOPA and a also private insurance broker that
supposedly can deal with any company other than AVEMCO (which is who I
think AOPA uses) and both told me that $1MM smooth simply wasn't available.

Matt

Matt,
We have had $1M smooth with USAIG the last several years starting
when we both had less than 500hrs and without instrument ratings.
Last year, we checked around and found that AOPA agreed to offer $1M
smooth with AIG but with a somewhat higher premium than USAIG so we
stayed with USAIG. Previously, AOPA told us that they could not offer
$1M smooth, maybe the change had something to do with the fact that we
got over 500hrs and with instrument ratings. We stayed with USAIG
this year but switched agency since the previous one could not get us
additional insured with waiver of subrogation free of charge for Guy
Maher, a CFI specialized in Cardinal operation (whom we plan to take a
training course this summer). Through the new agency, I learned that
we could reduce our premium from $1545 to $1311 with $2500 deductible
for the hull coverage (insured at $60K). This is about the same as
what we got before with AIG for the $1M with $100K sublimit.

I wonder if that is because you had an existing policy? I have 600+
hours and am instrument rated also, but I checked on insurance just last
January and was told flat-out that I couldn't get $1M smooth initially.

I sent and looked and I kept the email:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I emailed you a quote for liability only, I hope you received it. The
company I quoted is AIG. The highest limit they will offer at this time is
the industry standard 1mil/100K. They will require at least 50 hours in
the make/model before they would offer higher limits, maybe next year. If
you have any more questions, or wish to bind the coverage, just give me a
call.

Regards,

We cannot accept bind and change requests via email.

Jeanie Shogren
Account Executive
AOPA Insurance Agency, Inc.
P. O. Box 9170
Wichita, KS 67277
Phone: 1-800-622-2672, ext. 177
Fax: 316-942-0091
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Matt Whiting
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:06 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Dan Luke wrote:
Quote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote:

I was flat out unable to find this coverage. If you find someone who will
write such a policy, please let me know. I didn't try Lloyds of London, but
I called AOPA and a also private insurance broker that supposedly can deal
with any company other than AVEMCO (which is who I think AOPA uses) and both
told me that $1MM smooth simply wasn't available.

I must be missing something here.

I just upgraded my coverage to $1M smooth through the AOPA agency with no
trouble. Cost me an extra $600/yr.


I couldn't get that initially. Yes, they told me after 50 hours they
would consider an upgrade. I'm assuming you've had your airplane for
more than 50 hours. :-)

Matt
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Jim Carter
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Matt - it looks like their issue was <50 Hrs in type at the time of the
request. Also, you were asking for straight liability only - no hull
coverage. Were you approaching the request as a renter?

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Matt Whiting" <whiting (AT) epix (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:Yu44i.10174$Oc.238596 (AT) news1 (DOT) epix.net...
....
Quote:

I sent and looked and I kept the email:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I emailed you a quote for liability only, I hope you received it. The
company I quoted is AIG. The highest limit they will offer at this time
is
the industry standard 1mil/100K. They will require at least 50 hours in
the make/model before they would offer higher limits, maybe next year. If
you have any more questions, or wish to bind the coverage, just give me a
call.

....
Back to top
rmacklem@uoguelph.ca
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

On May 19, 8:58 pm, g...@gate.net wrote:
Quote:
On May 19, 4:57 pm, "Private" <ple...@dont.bother> wrote:> In the 'Would you buy this engine' thread,

Peter R. said "With the glut of aircraft on the market"

There is also the possibility that the new Light-Sport Aircraft
flooding the market have an influence on the market. There are over
100 LSA models available now and more coming everyday. Fun flying for
4 to 5 gph sure is nice when gas costs $3 to $4 a gallon. Looking at
statistics pilots fly less than 100 hours a year and carry one or less
passengers so the Light-Sport Aircraft can cover most of the fun
flying done today statistically. I'm not saying the LSAs are doing all
the flying just that they might be having an affect and growing.

Yep, might have to do with the medical requirements for LS as

well as fuel costs, etc. I see a lot of grey hair (ok, so I've
sprouted
a few myself:-) around the GA fields these days. If you have the
choice of "try renewing class 3, but if theres problems..." vs
"don't renew and fly on your drivers license"?

Here in Canada, we don't have Light Sport, but they are talking
about it and I hope they do follow the FAA lead.

Wouldn't mind a good, cheap Decathlon myself, rick
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Matt Whiting
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Jim Carter wrote:
Quote:
Matt - it looks like their issue was <50 Hrs in type at the time of the
request. Also, you were asking for straight liability only - no hull
coverage. Were you approaching the request as a renter?


I asked for full coverage at first including $1MM smooth liability (see
below), but after I fell out of my chair seeing the premium and they
hadn't quoted the $1MM smooth per my request. I then asked again what
liability only would be with $1MM smooth since they had given no reason
for not quoting the requested covered in round 1. I then got the
response that they wouldn't write that coverage so I passed on purchase
of the 210. If I can't fly on company business, my person "business
case" for buying an airplane is in much poorer shape...

Matt



I. AIRCRAFT DESCRIPTION & PHYSICAL DAMAGE COVERAGE

Aircraft 1 of 1
NJAS3068 1966 CESSNA 210F
Number of Seats 6
Insured Value $70,000
Hull Coverage Full Ground & Flight
Deductible In Motion/Ingestion: $100
Deductible Not In Motion: $100

Approved Pilots for Aircraft NJAS3068 with requirements if applicable
Matthew Whiting
Any other pilots: Any private pilot or better having an instrument
rating having a minimum of 750 total logged hours including 250 hours in
retractable gear aircraft and at least 25 hours in the make and model.

Premium for Aircraft NJAS3068 is $3,785.00

____________________________________________________________
II. LEGAL LIABILITY PROTECTION - Limits of Liability
Single Limit Each Occurrence Including Passengers $1,000,000
Sub Limit per Passenger if applicable $100,000

____________________________________________________________
III. MEDICAL PAYMENTS Each passenger $1,000

Total Annual Policy Premium $3,785.00
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Newps
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Matt Whiting wrote:


Quote:
I. AIRCRAFT DESCRIPTION & PHYSICAL DAMAGE COVERAGE

Aircraft 1 of 1
NJAS3068 1966 CESSNA 210F
Number of Seats 6
Insured Value $70,000
Hull Coverage Full Ground & Flight
Deductible In Motion/Ingestion: $100
Deductible Not In Motion: $100

Approved Pilots for Aircraft NJAS3068 with requirements if applicable
Matthew Whiting
Any other pilots: Any private pilot or better having an instrument
rating having a minimum of 750 total logged hours including 250 hours in
retractable gear aircraft and at least 25 hours in the make and model.

Premium for Aircraft NJAS3068 is $3,785.00

____________________________________________________________
II. LEGAL LIABILITY PROTECTION - Limits of Liability
Single Limit Each Occurrence Including Passengers $1,000,000
Sub Limit per Passenger if applicable $100,000

____________________________________________________________
III. MEDICAL PAYMENTS Each passenger $1,000

Total Annual Policy Premium $3,785.00


That's a terrible quote. When I bought my Bo in the summer of 05 I had
zero retract time. About 1100 hours total, almost all in my 182. Hull
value $90K. Premium was $2800 for the same limits as you except the
medical payments are either $3K or $5K, I forget. Last year the premium
was $2300. This year I expect it will be less then $2K especially since
I won't forget to ask to have it insured for four seats only this time.
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Ken Reed
Guest





PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: current small aircraft market???? Reply with quote

Quote:
NJAS3068 1966 CESSNA 210F
Insured Value $70,000
Premium for Aircraft NJAS3068 is $3,785.00

That's a major reason I didn't buy a turbo 210 I looked at a few years
ago. Insurance on any 210 was outrageous, according to my broker. I'm
paying less of a yearly premium than quoted above, have 1MM smooth, an
airframe that's 25 years newer and a hull value almost four times that
quoted above. This for my Mooney Bravo.

--
Ken Reed
M20M, N9124X
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